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If There is No God... (debate)
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Post by
Laihendi
What if your senses are flawed? There are things you cannot smell, see, hear, feel, or taste, but maybe others can. Does that mean it does not exist for you? Clearly it does, if someone else can perceive that hypothetical thing.
But if it is entirely impossible for you to perceive by any means, then how does it exist to you?
Post by
TheMediator
If something exists that I cannot detect but influences other people, I can conclude it exists. People come from (or claim to come from) Mexico, and they explain their experiences there. I can see images of Mexico, but I have never been there and seen for myself; the images I see could in fact be fake. Mexico could not exist, but there's enough evidence to assume that Mexico does exist.
Post by
Laihendi
What happens in Mexico does influence you, simply by seeing those images, and talking to those people. You don't seem to have understood what Laihendi said in his last post.
Post by
TheMediator
Alright, so you're asking if something has no effect on me whatsoever and I have no knowledge of it, did it actually happen? Like if a rock fell down a cliff on Mars, did it actually happen, even though I don't know it did?
To that, I have no idea, maybe it did, maybe it didn't, I believe that what I perceive is reality and react based on that belief, but it could in fact not exist, I don't know for absolute sure. However, if reality does exist, then yes, things I have no knowledge of and that have no influence on me do exist.
Post by
Laihendi
Again, a rock falling off a cliff is something that can be seen, felt, and heard. Think about something, that no matter where you are, you cannot detect it, or signs of it with any of your 5 senses. Did it happen? To you, it didn't.
Post by
TheMediator
Again, a rock falling off a cliff is something that can be seen, felt, and heard. Think about something, that no matter where you are, you cannot detect it, or signs of it with any of your 5 senses. Did it happen? To you, it didn't.
I don't get what you're trying to get at now. Gravity is something I can't detect with my senses, but it effects things indirectly. Everything that exists either directly or indirectly influences things, however small. I might not realize the influence, but it still has an influence. The only way something couldn't have an influence on me is if it didn't exist in any sense of the word exist. If there is a reality, and something doesn't exist for me, it doesn't exist for anyone.
Post by
Laihendi
You can feel gravity...
Everything that exists either directly or indirectly influences things, however small. I might not realize the influence, but it still has an influence. The only way something couldn't have an influence on me is if it didn't exist in any sense of the word exist. If there is a reality, and something doesn't exist for me, it doesn't exist for anyone.This shows a fundamental flaw in your argument, and a fundamental misunderstanding of Laihendi's. If it is physically impossible to detect something
and
its impacts with any of your 5 senses, then you claim it does not exist. How can you be sure that there are not things happening that cannot be perceived by any of your senses, and that
all
the effects of those things cannot be detected by any of your senses.
There are living things with less senses than the five humans have, how can you know there aren't living things with more?
Post by
Preposition
What a silly discussion.
I'm glad I could contribute.
Post by
TheMediator
Alright, I figured gravity was far enough out... alright, electromagnetism, I know it exists without feeling it, but I can feel things that it impacts. If you're saying there could be mysterious aliens who exist but can never cross into this world, and who never have an impact on this world might "exist", then I say, who cares, they don't exist in the sense that we think of existing.
Post by
Laihendi
You can detect the influence of electromagnetism with use of your senses, indirectly. And your sense of existing and Laihendi's are entirely different, which further indicates that reality (truth) is relevant.
Post by
TheMediator
And your sense of existing and Laihendi's are entirely different, which further indicates that reality (truth) is relevant.
No. You might be wrong though. Just because you think something doesn't exist if you don't notice doesn't mean your thought is right.
Have you heard of the butterfly effect?
Post by
Laihendi
Laihendi never said it doesn't exist, that's what you said.
and who never have an impact on this world might "exist", then I say, who cares, they don't exist in the sense that we think of existing.
Post by
TheMediator
Laihendi never said it doesn't exist, that's what you said.
and who never have an impact on this world might "exist", then I say, who cares, they don't exist in the sense that we think of existing.
Yes, not noticing something =/= it not having an effect on you. If something has no effect in any sense of the word, its fair to say it doesn't exist, whereas if something did exist, it could effect you without you knowing it.
Post by
Laihendi
Then to you it does not exist, and to someone or something else, it does.
Post by
TheMediator
Then to you it does not exist, and to someone or something else, it does.
No, because if it effects someone else, that would effect me indirectly. To something not existent it might exist to them, but who cares because they don't exist either.
Post by
Laihendi
You said it's nonexistent in the way you think of something existing. And yet it exists in a way that someone else could think of something existing. Does that not prove that reality and truth are not absolute?
No, because if it effects someone else, that would effect me indirectly. You've altered the hypothetical situation to fit the purposes of your argument...
Post by
TheMediator
You said it's nonexistent in the way you think of something existing. And yet it exists in a way that someone else could think of something existing. Does that not prove that reality and truth are not absolute?
Alright... someone can think of a chocolate bar as a type of fruit... does that mean that I should accept their view that chocolate bars are fruits? No.
You've altered the hypothetical situation to fit the purposes of your argument...
How so? This is what I'm saying
X--Y--------Z, Y directly effects me, Z indirectly effects me because it effects Y in some way.
Now look at this...
X----------IEnd of RealityI-----Q------R, Q cannot effect me, R cannot effect me, Q is effected by R but doesn't really matter because neither of them effect this reality.
Post by
Laihendi
Once again, you're making stuff up to justify your argument. Laihendi never said that what others believe is right and what you believe is wrong. What you're saying now has nothing to do with this discussion.
Post by
TheMediator
Once again, you're making stuff up to justify your argument. Laihendi never said that what others believe is right and what you believe is wrong. What you're saying now has nothing to do with this discussion.
How's that? If something effects someone else, that effects me, unless they don't exist. That's what I'm saying, anything that effects anyone else effects me if everything is real. You cannot say that someone is effected by something, and that they doesn't effect me, unless both those people aren't real or I'm not real. L2Butterfly Effect.
This has gone quite off topic though.
Post by
Laihendi
Laihendi is saying that if something happens that your senses cannot perceive, and that the impacts cannot be detected by any senses you posses, someone would say that it exists, while others (like you did) would say it does not. You seem to be completely ignoring the fundamentals of the hypothetical (and admittedly vague) situation Laihendi set up, and are now throwing out the "L2's" and making up various things, and ignoring others, in an attempt to prove that you're right, and Laihendi is wrong.
Because of that, this argument is pretty pointless. Laihendi fully expects you to say something like "omg your only quitting because u know im right!". You can believe that if you want.
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