If your a Mage grab some Kleenex because you will get teary eyed..

Post by Blightman

Quick summary if you don't like wall of text:

Gnamy QQs with a lot of bad information.

Your comments about the warlock class show that you have not played one and don't have a clue about how they actually work. So here are some corrections for you.

Our Fireball/Frostbolt crits gets outperformanced by Shadow Bolt on a regular basis.

Ruin adds 50% damage to the SB crit, Ignite adds 40% damage as a DOT when fireball crits
Fireball w/ Ignite(added for clarity) adds a DOT that does more damage while SB does not
Fireball's DD damage base is higher than SB's
Fireball has 100.0% (115.0% with Empowered Fireball) spell damage coefficient while Sb only has 85.71% (105.71% with Shadow and Flame)

Say a FB crits for 2400 and a SB crits for 3000, The total damage from the SB is 3000, The Fb does 2400 + 2400*.4 + DOT = 3360 + DOT. Since the spell coefficient for FB is higher than for SB there is no equivalent spell damage level at which SB will do more damage then FB

Conversely SB will do more damage than FB. This is intentional because FB has a slow effect while SB is pure damage.

The fact is: We're the only class who depend entirely on long cast-time spells, without any means of securing that cast-time. A warlock can chain fear you while casting his Shadow Bolt. We get silenced/interrupted before anything happens.

Changing gear to PvP mode now and pure QQ.

You have instant cast spells: Arcane Explosion and Fire Blast and you can pick up 2 more throught alents Dragon's Breath and Blast Wave
Chain fearing is an exaggeration and you know it. The DR on fears leaves about 3 fears max before immunity
Fear has a cast time, Sb has a cast time. Rogue say "KICK", Shammy says "EARTH SHOCK", etc.
Fear breaks on damage

Warlocks out-AoE-damage us, ánd they can run around while doing it.

And what instant cast AoE spell are the using to run around while AoEing? SoC has cast time and Rain of Fire is channeled, Hellfire is channeled. Sure ShadowFury is instant and on a 20s CD

Sure, we have multiple AoE spells, but they're not viable. The only places you ever really AoE is on Mount Hyjal trash, where we get out-DPSed by warlocks.

AoE DPSing is generally only viable when a tank is involved due to the threat generated.
I've shown it before, flamestrike +AE spam will out DPS SoC spam

Post by Blightman

Unless you have a /played of 20 days or more at 70 as a Mage, I don't think you have a valid arguement against what is being said in this thread.

NOOO! i'm only at /played 19days 23hrs 59 minutes and 59 seconds

jk jk, but in all seriousness i agree with everything on this thread especially the part about no unique abilities, and i was talking to a rogue friend yesterday who said, that they've got to bring atleast two of us because of sheep...

LMAO at both of these. Well done sir

Post by 102386

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by 178342

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by 178342

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by 145396

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by 145396

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Blightman

Your comments about the warlock class show that you have not played one and don't have a clue about how they actually work. So here are some corrections for you.

Our Fireball/Frostbolt crits gets outperformanced by Shadow Bolt on a regular basis.

Ruin adds 50% damage to the SB crit, Ignite adds 40% damage as a DOT when fireball crits
Fireball adds a DOT that does more damage while SB does not
Fireball's DD damage base is higher than SB's
Fireball has 100.0% (115.0% with Empowered Fireball) spell damage coefficient while Sb only has 85.71% (105.71% with Shadow and Flame)

Say a FB crits for 2400 and a SB crits for 3000, The total damage from the SB is 3000, The Fb does 2400 + 2400*.4 + DOT = 3360 + DOT. Since the spell coefficient for FB is higher than for SB there is no equivalent spell damage level at which SB will do more damage then FB
__________________________________________________________
Hmm talking about knowing a class... Ruin increases critical damage by 100%.
I think I'll give everyone a lesson on this, aparrently we don't all get it. Plus, this may help the nub frost mages out there, possibly keyboard face-rolling warlocks too (Maybe ele shaman? Oh wait that's one of the most difficult PVP specs to master. Doubtful an ele shaman will get far useing the warlock /win tecnique).
Every class starts off with 150% damage for a crit. Basically, if I normally do 10 dmg, I will crit for 15. This means that my CRITICAL DAMAGE is 50%. Now, if my critical damage is increased by 100%, increase 50% by 100% (take the 50 you started with and add 50).
You now end up with 100% critical damage as opposed to 50%.
Now, what does that all mean? My crits now do DOUBLE DAMAGE: 10 + 100% of 10 (which is 10)= 20.

/inhale
.

Sorry I dumbed it down Darshy.

SB crit w/o ruin gets base damage increased by 150% with ruin it is increased by 200%. or to put it another way the bonus damage from a crit (50%) is doubled(to 100%) and added to the base damage to give a overall damage increase of 200%

But the difference in damage between an SB crit with and with out ruin is 50% of base spell damage, hence my statement above.

Example:
An average Rank 10 Shadow Bolt hits for 561 without +damage from gear. This means that an average critical would be 842 (561*1.5 or (561+(516*.5))= 561+280.5) damage without Ruin.However, with Ruin, the average crit would become 1122(561*2 or (561+((561*.5)*2) = 561+561) , which is 200% base spell damage

Do fire mages get double damage crits? Nope. We get a dot, yes, but Warlocks get +20% dmg for their next 4CASTS (not to mention the other buffs previously mentioned). Do you know what a mage would do to get a buff like that for fire?

I like how you blow past the 40% of the damage DOT Ignite does. Let's go back to the math board:
Let's say a FB hits normally for 1k. and crits for....1000*1.5=1.5k then adds a dot for 40% of the damage done,s so 1500*.4= 600, yielding a increase over base spell damage of *gasp* 210%.

Now let's say that a SB normally hits for 1k and crits with ruin for 2k

Hmm a little more math tells me that 2100 is > 2000

Feel free to look up ignite in the class stick for mages
Ignite: This talent is to fire spells what ice shards is to frost. Except while ice shards increases your crit damage to 200% or norm, ignite grants 210%.

And last time I checked Corruption does a tad bit more damage than a fireball dot.

Or did you believe I was referring to the tiny normal DOT from fireball. If so, I apologize for unintentionally misleading you. I will amend the 1st post to be clearer

I cannot believe someone is actually attempting to defend Warlocks in this.
I will certainly stop people form posting incorrect information

Post by 158669

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Blightman

a) Locks get the bonus Spell Damage from their armor (+100, or +130 if they specced to it.).
b) Locks can get a 15% Shadow Damage bonus if they spec Demonic Sacrifice.
c) Imp. Shadow Bolt gives another 20% damage boost.
d) Warlocks are packed with their own Shadow damage boosting Curse.

What do we get? 15%, after 5 scorches, if we manage to keep it up, which isn't possible in all fights.

I'd do the math, but just one of those buffs is enough to boost SB damage over FB damage with your example.

"equivalent spell damage level " - saying that you can't do as much damage with less spell damage is a statement of blinding obviousness

As I mentioned earlier, w/o any talents Fb gets 15% more damage from spell damage than Sb with talents it "only" get 10% more
Yeah we get fel armor for more base spell damage, you get molten armor for a 3% crit bonus
yeah we get 15% bonus damage if we sac a pet, you get 20% damage when target health drop under 20%
iSB give 20% bonus, iScorch gives 15% bonus
CoE is only cast to boost raid dps, you know when there are enough people in a raid(like mages) to benefit from it, for raw DPS CoD or CoA would be used.

See how this goes we each add modifiers and claim that proves which one does more damage. That is why you compare equivalent spell damage levels or to phrase it another way the final spell damage bonuses.

The fact is: We're the only class who depend entirely on long cast-time spells, without any means of securing that cast-time. A warlock can chain fear you while casting his Shadow Bolt. We get silenced/interrupted before anything happens.

Changing gear to PvP mode now and pure QQ.

You have instant cast spells: Arcane Explosion and Fire Blast and you can pick up 2 more throught alents Dragon's Breath and Blast Wave
Chain fearing is an exaggeration and you know it. The DR on fears leaves about 3 fears max before immunity
Fear has a cast time, Sb has a cast time. Rogue say "KICK", Shammy says "EARTH SHOCK", etc.
Fear breaks on damage

a) Yes, we have great skills, right there. Which is exactly my complaint throughout the post: WHY ARE THEY IN THE PVE TALENT TREE?
b) Yes, chain-fear is exaggerated, I know. But still, 3 fears adds up to 15 seconds or so? Don't know the down-valuing of CC durations by heart. That's still 2 or 3 Shadowbolts, EASILY. I would KILL for three free frost bolts. Or more precisely, I would kill WITH those free frost bolts.
c) Yes, fear and Shadowbolt have cast times. What's your point? My point is: You can still kill easily with only your dots alone. ("Easily" might be another exaggeration. I mean: More easily than we can by throwing 300 damage Ice Lances at your face.)
d) Barely... When I break out of fear before losing at least 50% of my HP, I count myself lucky.

Trying to keep this brief:
You cry that you get your spells take too long in PvP and you get interrupted. I tell you that we get the same interruptions when we try and cast fear/Sb/anything with a cast time.

The CC duration is cut in 1/2 each time. Generally a feared target is DOTd not SBd
1v1 PvP lock vs mage favors a lock. Just like 1v1 favors a rogue over a lock or a mage

You don't get to AE spam in MH (or any other higher level instance), because:
a) Too much mana costs.
b) Getting close to mobs means death. (Think of the Abominations in MH.)
c) Seriously, WAY too much mana costs.

For controlled AoE damage (Again, like in MH trash. It's one of the only real AoE situations I can think off really.), SoC outperforms any Mage-AoE.

SoC is a mana pig, with an 9k mana pool you will get 9 SoCs before needing to life tap. At that point you will get a little bit more than 1 SoC per life tap.

Except for Flamestrike none of your spells eat as much mana. You don't have life tap bu tyou can use mage armor for 30% of normal mana regen. or evocation

I do recognize that you can't get close enough to AE spam mobs which do damage to nearby players but there are plenty who don't. From another thread here: http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=30962.2
Theoretically, sure mages should be top dog. In practise, it's always the warlocks topping damage meters on Mount Hyal trash. SoC can be spammed, and you might get off as much as 3 on several targets before they all go up. Blizzard has to be channeled, and mainly functions to set off SoC :S

Spamming AE is not a viable option, as it's very mana intensive, and many mobs tend to turn around and give you a little 10k lovetap if you're that close.

edit: AE statement

Here is a WWS from the first three bosses in MH. As you can see, All three mages are above the two warlocks in damage...the two arcane mages spamming AE significantly so.

http://wowwebstats.com/my61jedccczq1

Oh! Almost forgot!
Judging from your comments, you've never really played a Mage character, have you?

Yeah. I went there.

It's fine that you went there, now define what you mean by really played. Do I have a raiding mage? Not yet. Leveling a maage now. Scroll down to my sig and that will be a bit more obvious.

Do you have a lock?

Post by 102386

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Blightman

"equivalent spell damage level " - saying that you can't do as much damage with less spell damage is a statement of blinding obviousness

Where did I state that? I stated that Locks get free spell damage, hence: With the same amount of Spell Damage (from gear), they have more Spell Damage (thanks to their armor).

I said that in my original post about comparing the damage potential of the 2 spells. See now you are talking about how much locks scale from spell damage as opposed to how well their spell perform.

a) Everyone gets the talents. Now, compare this for me:
-Fireball (3.5sec cast time): 5 talents for -0.5 sec; 5talents for +15% spell damage coefficient; 5 talents for 40% crit-dot (Total: 210% damage, neglecting the lost damage when a mob dies before the dot runs out.) SpellD coeff: 100.0% (115.0% with Empowered Fireball)
-Frost Bolt (3sec cast time): 5 talents for -0.5 sec; 5talents for +10% spell damage coefficient (and 5% crit chance, only for FB); Spell damage coefficient: 81.43% (91.43% with Empowered Frostbolt)
-Shadow Bolt: 5 talents for -0.5sec (PLUS another spell. Not sure if that one is useful, but it's something extra.); 5talents for Coeff: 85.71% (105.71% with Shadow and Flame)

You say Fireball gets a higher standard spell damage coefficient. I say: Spell Damage coefficients are based on Spell Cast Time. Seeing how Shadow Bolt has a standard cast time of 3sec, or 2,5sec with talents, you're wrong when you compare it with Fireball.
You SHOULD be comparing it with frost bolt. And what do we see?
14% more spell damage coefficient for Shadow Bolt.
Add to that the fact that we (Frost mages) need 5 talent points to get +100% Crit Damage while you need only 1 talent point (Yes, feel free to point it "But Gnamy, it has 5/5 requirements!". Are you honestly going to say you weren't planning on getting 5% crit chance? Don't &*!@ me.), this adds up to a nice boost for the Lock.

No you can't compare FstB and SB. SB is pure damage while FstB has a secondary slow effect. Because of the secondary effect blizz gives FB a lower spell coefficient.

b) Yes, 3% crit. Too bad we NEED Mage Armor in boss fights. We don't have your mana efficiency. A good example is the third boss in Mount Hyjal, which drains mana. After four marks, our mages started running away because they were about to explode on the next tick (After popping Gems, pots, Evocation, etc.), while the Locks happily stood where they were.
As you said on the AoE part: "After 9 SoCs, we have to start Life Tapping!". At least you CAN life tap. Mana gems have a huge cooldown. They're great, don't get me wrong, but on longer mana-intensve fights, they're nothing compared to Life Tap/Mana drain.

Actually I said if you have a 9k pool, many locks don't have that much. And it would be Life Tap/Drain Life not mana drain. Mana drain is way to underpowered/inefficient

c) Yes, but: Scorch is WAY less Dps than fireball (or Shadow Bolt, for that matter.). We have to do 5 at the start AND keep it up during the fight. On many boss fights, this isn't possible. (e.g.: Gruul, Lurker, ...)
You only have to crit.

6 of 1 half a dozen of the other.
Have to cast a different spell to get a guaranteed boost or wait for a crit. The lock way is easier if a little more up to chance. Are you saying that in a raid you don't assign a fire age to scorch duty? It is common for a lock to get assigned curse duty, sure it cuts his DPS down but it helps the raids DPS so he does it.

d) According to the DPS calc I used, CoE (or whatever it's called now) does better DPS than CoA.
Anyway: Yes, it's to up raid-DPS. BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT I SAID, was it?
My point was: A mage doesn't get another +88 spell damage bonus from any of their buffs. Locks get packed with ANOTHER debuff that increases their damage!
In a 1v1 fight, only the Lock benefits from it. What does the mage get? Arcane Intellect? Too bad we're the caster class that benefits least from it.

I made a mistake on CoE. It's not +88 damage. It's -88 resistance and +10% damage.
Plus. Ten. Percent. Damage.
Seriously.

Do your math again. It's been proven consistently that CoD(a 200% spell dmage coeeficient) on bosses will out perform CoE for PERSONAL DPS. We only use CoE in raids to help RAID DPS. On Trash it is irrelevant if a curse is used for DSP purposes on trash COA is the choice not CoE.

And you seriously whining about haveing a spell that increases you mana pool and crit chance.

It's fine that you went there, now define what you mean by really played. Do I have a raiding mage? Not yet. Leveling a mage now. Scroll down to my sig and that will be a bit more obvious.

Do you have a lock?

What, you think I missed your sig?
On the contrary, it explained to much to me.
I've got a lock at about the same level. I haven't played it in a while though and I don't intend to any time soon.
Was getting sick of the "2man party in one" combo.
(No, that's not intended as a "Locks are OP with their pets!". They might be, but I just meant I don't enjoy the playstyle they offer.)

If you read my sig then don't waste space asking stupid questions. Unlike you I am leveling my mage and learning a lot more about mages than you seem to ever have learned about locks. Do they play different? Yes, DUH! Do I feel underpowered and weak as a mage? No. If I tried to play my mage like a warlock I would be very unhappy and tink they sucked but I don't. I read the stickies, the EJ, forums, and talk to experienced mages and learn how to get the most from the class. i don't whine about what i can't do. Instead I look to what I can do better.

Post by OscarDivine

I feel like I've just walked in on an argument between two people. I'm almost embarressed that I read most of this,

Post by MrFredII

In the raids I go to and among the warlocks with whom I otherwise play there are none (no not one) who does not have more mana and A LOT more health than me.

Post by OscarDivine

In the raids I go to and among the warlocks with whom I otherwise play there are none (no not one) who does not have more mana and A LOT more health than me.

So long as the healers have mana, the Warlocks will too. Mana pool isn't the best factor by which to compare yourself to a warlock. This also, will of course, depend on the level of raiding you're doing.

Post by 42080

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by 99013

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by 102386

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by 177820

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Blightman

Mages aren't inferior to locks.

Yes they are!

Ok Gnamy you win. You are inferior to locks. Feel free to delete your toon.

I mean seriously, all you've said in your posts is that warlocks are better than mages.

As for responding to your arguments, how about when you say AE spam isn't viable in MH, and I posted a link to WWS from MH where the mages out DPSd the lock USING AE SPAM. I give plenty of counter examples and you just go blah blah blah.

Like I said, you win, you are inferior goodbye.

If your a Mage grab some Kleenex because you will get teary eyed..

Post Reply