Lack of love for the holy paladin?

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Post by 75419

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Post by 177993

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Post by blademeld

As far as I can tell most MH guilds were the kara guilds back in the BT/MH days.

Ambiguous statements FTW

Post by 177993

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Post by blademeld

I meant that MH/BT days are ambiguous

it really is!

Post by blademeld

that was a joke if you didn't get it

/afk watching anime

Post by 177993

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Post by blademeld

rofl, I'm not good with making jokes tbh

Post by 207301

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Post by Lightrain

I feel I need to add to this....

You guys have no clue why paladins have a hard time in heroics. I will explain.

I was easily healing instances, and heroics, but I know how to pay attention and swap targets while casting so I have a never ending heal spam, and when that big aoe hits, Divine illumination + HL spam.

I have since swapped to ret because it's way more fun in pvp since you don't get locked down by a 68 green wearing rogue who hits you for 50 per swing, maybe 80 on his big attacks.

THE MAIN REASON HOLY PALLIES ARE PASSED UP AND HAVE ISSUES WITH PARTY HEALING!

You need Blessing of light on the target to make your heals worth it. At 1700+healing, I heal for 200-300 more per FoL than a 1200+heal pally without it. Crits hit for more, but it's not much healing. Without BoL, flash heal hits for what, 1400 with 1700+healing(It's been a while....).

If you have salv on the rest of your group, your heals are reduced dramatically. On massive aoe damage groups, they have to take BoL and watch their aggro. Normal tanks shouldn't have an issue if their dps doesn't have salv. My druid can out threat 900 dps toons on single target fights, bosses especially, without salv. But everyone see's a pally and demands salv.

The mana efficiency comes at a cost, and is why we have an insane amount of crit on our holy gear.

The other classes are better at healing because their healing doesn't rely on a buff. I also have a priest and druid, and they are way easier to heal with. HoT's level out damage, and a priest's normal flash heal is 1600 with only 1600+healing as a disc spec. PoM heals for 1250, renew ticks for 630... You are passing around a lot of healing. Druid 3 stack LB ticks for 530 per second at 1400+healing, renew ticks for 720, regrowth hits for 1800, and crits for 3500 50% of the time.

It's not the party healing, it's the mechanics. Holy pally heals just aren't as powerful without the buff, hence why they are main tank healers.

The cure, know when there will be aoe damage, and prepare for it, swap the buffs to BoL and tell em to stop QQing like nubs and watch their aggro like real dps.

Post by 207301

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Post by 177993

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Post by Lightrain

You guys are really funny. You think because I swapped spec to ret, I don't know how to heal?

At 1700+healing, my holydin was critting 2.25k crits per FoL with BoL on. That's right, your 400+healing gets you 250 healing per crit on FoL. I out heal priests and druids and the likes all day long in av, kara, whatever. Yes, in aoe damage situations, it is rough to heal. I know, I got really good and controlling aoe damage, and keeping the ENTIRE group up. It helps that I also have 30% crit on my holy spells as well. T4 and kara geared healers will have more +healing and mp5, but way less crit. Hence why I prefer the pvp gear at that level.

What you guys don't understand, is I also have a feral druid with descent tank and resto gear, and a priest with a full holy pvp set(very not optimal for priest, I know), and I out threat dps pushing 900dps WITHOUT A F'ING PALADIN on my druid. Yep, that's right. No 5 man will ever, EVER rely on your salv. If your tank relies(sp* >.<) on a holy paladin passing out salv, he fails as a tank. There are very few holy paladins healing heroics on my realm. This means that 90-95% of the time, they don't have salv. I've tanked for 2 holy paladins. I've also healed for plenty of heroics, prot paladins, war's, and druids. Prot paladins should be the only ones passing out salv for boss fights that do a lot of aoe, or drop aggro. PERIOD. If a tank can't out threat dps on a single target, he fails. If the dps pulls a boss off the tank, that dps fails. It's not up to you to put salv on them so they can fight like noobs.

I have 3 healing classes. Don't tell me I don't know how to heal. Also, for the record. Druid's don't have an oh !@#$ button. They have a very limited catch up button. Priests don't have one at all. Read about the class skills and spells before you say something. Swift mend is on a CD. Sure, it works if you have rejuve up as a very cool burst heal. But if the tank gets spanked a few times, you really have to work a druid to get the tank to stay up. The reason druids are good is their 3 stack of Lifebloom and rejuve will even out those bursts quite well.

I also know that with 1700+healing, I could only keep the tank relatively level in kara. I couldn't out heal MOB dps with just FoL spams. If you think BoL doesn't affect a crit based healer, think again. Adding 300 or so to each crit rocks. Adding about (guessing here, but it's close)18% to your healing isn't laughable, it's why they gave it to you. How many tanks do you heal without it? Why would you always put BoL on a tank? Hm....

Now, I'm not saying salv doesn't work. I tried to off tank some non elites and forgot to click salv off, and I couldn't keep em off the holy pally. For mob pulls, for sure you want salv. The tank isn't putting all his focus into one target. This is VERY hard to tank with no salv while putting threat down on off targets so the healer doesn't pull aggro. At least for druids and warriors. It's a learned, experience based skill, and if you have 900-1100 dps pushing that main target, they better expect to kite or off tank it unless they give you a lead. Personally, I prefer to let the ignorant dps die, but it's always a challenge to over power their noob nature and make sure they don't die reguardless of how stupid they are.

If you really want to "show your stones", try being a man, and making dps do their job the right way whether they complain or not. I'll say it in a very easy to understand form...

SKILLED DPS DON'T NEED SALV! If you have a tankadin, absolutely. To make mob pulls less crazy because of skill deficient(sp*) dps, pass out salv. If your tank needs salv for a boss fight, find another group, because either your dps fails, or your tank is undergeared(or over geared, and tanking ramps or bf reg).

For the record, I read the whole thread. The first time. Just because I haven't played holy in a while, and I'm not going to waste 50g to get accurate numbers on my 1700+healing heals, and a scrub I know's 1400+heal heals, doesn't mean I don't know the dynamics of a holy paladin. There's a reason I respeced, and it's not because holy paladins fail. It's because most of the time, tanks fail, and blame it on the healer. I prefer my more powerful healers for healing heroics.

--Just an FYI--

Rejuve and swiftmend on a dumb dps that pulled takes 1.5 seconds, same as a flash of light, a single lifebloom will tick pretty small, but heal at the end just as big as a FoL. Swift mend has a cooldown, but will heal just as much as a HL or more. No druid will ever NS a dps to save him. A priest, ya, we are talking about way bigger 1.5 second flashes, but they cost way more mana, and we only have a self "OH SH1T" button if you are certain races(I love my dwarf! =D ). Top it off with a renew and PoM, and it's way more powerful. Bubble does NOTHING, so don't be thinking that's a save. It blocks 1500 damage. You are better off healing, or using it on yourself to protect your squishy self from aoe damage or random shots. Every class is dependent on the 1.5 second gcd.

It takes a druid 4.5 seconds to get a full LB stack rolling, 6 seconds to add rejuve. That's a long cast time. 3 second HT. 2 second regrowth cast(1.8 with set bonus from pvp gear). And if you let the LB stack drop, it's another 4.5 seconds, and that is the majority of your healing right there.

Priests, their efficient cast is greater heal. 2.5 second cast, spec'd(3 sec not spec'd). Renew, Flash heal, PoM, and the bubble all are subject to a 1.5 sec gcd. Good healers, that make instances easy to run, stack heals on the proper toons to even out damage, or keep them up. Paladins can't do this. After playing a holy paladin at 70 for over a year, I decided I didn't like the mechanics, and rolled another toon.

If you really want to complain about a healing class, roll a priest, and then complain about the paladin. If you rolled a healadin and want to complain about it, that's your fault, respec tankadin. They are OP in heroics. Personally, I don't like hearing people QQing about their class because of other class skills. Learn to deal with it, and be on the ball like you have to be for success as a holy pally. AND USE YOUR DAMN HOLY LIGHT! Spam it if you have to. It does work. A 2 second major heal is really fast. I'm notorious for spamming holy light on the whole party using trinkets and class spells to reduce the cost. You have mana potions too.

Sorry for the wall(wow, a really big wall!). Some people seem to need it, and probably won't read it or will completely missunderstand it.

Oh well, I tried.

Post by 106896

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Post by Lightrain

Hehe, true, but we aren't talking raids here. We are talking heroics. You can do a heroic with 500dps toons all around and make it thru rather easily. If you have that much dps, healing aoe damage would be pretty easy for a holy paladin. They wouldn't have to. The fight would be over long before anyone got to half HP.

That was flawed, it actually takes 3 seconds, and 4.5 seconds to add rejuve. Those numbers are to get to the next cast. Most boss fights, you can't stack until after the tank gets aggro. This can cause problems, but shouldn't be an issue. You have to hit dps that takes damage with a 1.5 second cd, but luckily, druid doesn't lose heals on the tank during this. You have to play the catch up game when you are healing as a paladin. Top off the tank, heal 2 others, top of the tank, heal 2 others.

Also, I don't know many, I should say any, people that can pull 2k dps in a 5 man. It's the raid buffs that up their dps all crazy like that. I've seen t6 ele shamies pull 1100-1200 dps in 5 mans, but not 2k... If you are pugging heroics, there is no such thing. You'll be lucky to find 900 dps in a heroic.

Post by 177993

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Post by 207301

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Post by Lightrain

Wow, you didn't read the bubble comment did you? In a heroic, if you bubble, your tank gets damaged. Period. It does NOTHING. You can't start a bigger heal, you can't do anything with it. If you want to start a bigger heal, you cast renew, flash, and then a big heal and hope he stays alive long enough. It takes a gcd and is way less powerful than a flash heal at 1300+heals. Try again. CoH at 1700+healing is only 900 healing per target in range. Wanna try that one again? Spamming it drains your mana too, very quickly.

With your uber gear, you should be able to LoH, pot, and flash heal to your hearts content and keep everyone alive. Oh S#1t, that's one of those buttons isn't it? Sorry....

Why do you guys always bring raiding into an arguement about heroics? You fail if you do so. I'm not even going to go there.

Heroics 101-(for the seemingly uber raid healer that doesn't remember what it's like when you started heroics....) BoL will be 20% of your healing when you start heroics. PERIOD! STFU and stop bashing it. Mr. Uber 2100+heals forgot what it was like.

Learn the situation you scrub. Not everyone spends 24 hours per week raiding bt/mh/ssc/swp.

Get out of your raid gear and pay attention to the OP. 1500+healing is a FAR cry from your gear.

Do you get the picture now?

Hmmm, 2 crits on jumpy dps? Sounds like someone didn't wait long enough. Oh wait, he just iceblocked/vanished/bubbled/faded/wtfever button he has. I've seen that on prince WITH salv. Don't give me that. Starting dps is always the scary, "am I gonna pull it?" part.

I'll leave your arguement about druids, since you kinda have a point, eventhough I still think it's not as big as you make it out to be, but I can heal heroic with minimal deaths with my uber 1340+healing when I'm resto.(LOL run on sentence!)

A normal group for heroic will not need salv. Take your 1100 dps lock or huntard somewhere else. I don't need you, that's a waste of half your gear. Just give it to me. =) Especially when the aoe starts and you bitch because the holy pally let you die trying to keep the tank up and you only have 8k hp and happened to be on the bottom of his party list, while everyone else who was in pvp gear, didn't have aggro issues, and was able to take a few hits from heroic mobs/aoe. I actually prefer pvp gear over pve gear for heroics. Mainly because as a dps or healer, it's good to be able to take a few hits if you have a tank or healer you don't know. Tanking is a different story, but we aren't arguing that.

You guys and your uber t5/t6/swp gear are forgetting the whole point of this thread. Struggling thru heroics is not something you will hear from tier geared groups. If you do, you /roflmao and make fun of them for the rest of the year. Please stop with the stupid arguements, and get back to the topic here.

Just an FYI- The gear level you are talking about, you could have naked dps with their swp/t6 weapons, and still make it thru a heroic.

Post by 177993

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Post by Lightrain

Starting heroics dude.
Starting heroics.
Starting heroics.
STARTING HEROICS.

My god, if you can push 1100 dps starting heroics, I want your virtual children.

10% at melee range, 30% at distance.

I can push 650-680 tps on my druid with 1500 attack power as a feral tank and swipe off targets. Why do I need salv on my dps?

How many starting heroic dps can push more than 700 dps? TELL ME PLEASE!

Mages sure, but they fall under the 30% rule.

I can't argue with a raider. They just "know everything". Go back to swp, and leave the heroics to us. Grind your badges with your T6 buddies. Go on now. /shoo

Again, I don't need salv for boss fights. Only trash mobs, and even then, it's not necessary unless a dps is doing aoe damage.

We did mgt reg last night with a holy pally. I had him put BoL up after a wipe on an aoe boss. Wouldn't you know? We didn't wipe after that. Go figure. We also had a ret pally, so it was BoL and kings. For the first boss, and for the priestess fight, and the kael fight. We had slow dps, so it was pretty brutal, but you get my point. Actually, you probably don't. Oh well. Enjoy your speed pull heroics with your over geared friends. =)