Noob@Frost, 15/56/0 or 0/53/18 for pvp?

Post by Kurtosis

Hi all, played UH from 55 to 79, now experimenting with Frost for pvp. I'm testing two builds, 15/56/0 and 0/53/18.

Objective of both is to buff melee and spell burst, and pvp-utility, at the cost of talents that buff or depend on kiting-vulnerable auto-attacks like Killing Machine, Icy Talons, Necrosis, Blood-Caked-Blade, etc. 2H, not DW. And I hear people disparage Hungering Cold, but since this is my first time as Frost I want to try it.

Not sure which is a better subspec, Blood or UH. Blood gives more RP generation, +9% Oblit crit, and Bladed Armor and Dark Conviction.

UH gives better Death Strike and DC, Spell Hit, shorter DG cd, additional stun resist that stacks with the orc racial, and the ability to come back as a ghoul which other classes hate.

Basically, Blood sub buffs dmg, UH sub buffs utility.

Anyone have any experience with similar builds?

Post by Kurtosis

Posted this on the WoW DK forums and got a response from a 2000+ arena Frost DK. He uses Icy Talons, Improved Icy Talons, and Killing Machine to proc 50% crit chances on Frost Nukes:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=13908989899&postId=141215313460&sid=1#10

His build: 7/56/8

His explanation for taking Icy Talons, Improved Icy Talons, and Killing Machine:

Neither. I prefer 7/56/8 for pvp (and it also works very well as a PvE DPS spec, too).

After spending nearly 3,000 gold on respecs since launch, I think I've finally found a great build that I enjoy for both aspects of the game. I'm currently the only 2k+ rated DK in the arena as frost (I think).

When we run into our holy pal + Unholy/blood dk "mirror", we always win. The gargoyle is easily LoS'd and 2 shot, and paladins have a hard time healing through frost burst.

The only healer I have a hard time bursting down is a good resto shaman. Grounding totem > Mind freeze. :/
...
RNG burst, or RNG in general has always been king in PvP. Killing machine is nothing but RNG bursty goodness. When your target dies due to double/triple crits in a row, you'll be glad you have it. Imp icy talons is necessary to keep KM proc rate high (along with a high crit chance), especially with all the ways people can slow attack speed. Imp icy talons won't help you much vs classes that kite you, true. But that's why you get acclimation. :) Classes that kite you are typically casters. Pretty hard to nuke/cc someone who has 230 resists.
...
Oh, I forgot to mention one thing: Unholy presence for PvP.

Post by skribs

With a healer, that build would actually be really good, despite picking up some talents I don't particularly like (e.g. KM+IT/IIT), mainly because of the synergy they provide.

Without a healer, however, you're lacking in self heals (which subbing 18 or 21 points in blood would give you), and you probably wont last long enough for acclimation to really matter. So if you're doing full DPS teams, I'd recommend going with a more duel-based build. (Duel as in 1vs1, not DW).

Basically, the build you linked in the second post relies on procs, and if you yourself get bursted down before the procs can take effect, you're going to be doing a lot worse. However, if you survive long enough to make the procs happen, you're going to steamroll, which is what having a healer does for you.

Post by Kurtosis

Ic, what about a variation of it like 19/52/0 that gets you Improved Rune Tap and UA at the cost of Tundra Stalker? Would that be enough healing and defense?

Post by Zerul

I've actually just went PVE Frost recently and, after picking up Killing Machine + Icy Talons, damn I notice a difference. My DPS shot up in PVE from ~1500 to ~2100, and my burst/individual attacks do so much more in both PVP and PVE environments. I have neither Ghoul form nor Rune Tap, so my survivability relies solely on healers or killing someone before they kill me. Of course, such problems are void when you've got a Holy Paladin partner...

I highly recommend KM for PVP. Unbreakable Armor, I use all the time with Blood Tap in PVE, but I never use it for PVP due to rune cost issues. You're better off saving Blood Tap for something like a clutch Chains of Ice or Strangulate. Extra RP is extremely sexy for both PVP and PVE, but I guess that Jayde, as well as many others, don't see it necessary for PVP. I guess so, considering Mind Freeze is free. Epidemic isn't so important for Frost if you've already got Icy Talons since you'll want to use Icy Touch often.

If you're not going to roll with a healer and instead try for double DPS or whatever, yes, I highly recommend getting Rune Tap. Unfortunately, you'll lose Virulence, which is a huge help against healers.

Now, is it just me or is Unholy Presence also better for PVE if you've got Icy Talons? I find it hard to break 2100dps even with cooldowns when on Blood Presence, but find little problem doing so with UP.

And one of the main reasons you go Frost besides the burst is for the 1 minute cd aoe-Blind. Try to get Hungering Cold if you're that deep into Frost.

Post by Kurtosis

Now, is it just me or is Unholy Presence also better for PVE if you've got Icy Talons? I find it hard to break 2100dps even with cooldowns when on Blood Presence, but find little problem doing so with UP.
Not just you, Jayde threw that comment in too. Everything you can do to increase KM procs, which means any haste talent - IIT, UHP, etc.
And one of the main reasons you go Frost besides the burst is for the 1 minute cd aoe-Blind. Try to get Hungering Cold if you're that deep into Frost.
aoe-Blind? you mean aoe-snare?

Post by Zerul

Well it's similar to Blind/Sap/Polymorph/whatever 10 second CC.

Post by Kurtosis

Ah right, forgot they couldn't do anything while frozen. Basically an AoE Sap, since they don't move either.

Post by Kurtosis

Been trying out a variant of that build, 19/52/0, and it feels really good. Been looking for an excuse to use Unholy Presence, and now have one. .5s less GCD and run speed ftw. RNG in this build is actually pretty fun. The shortened GCD is what really does it though, it feels great. Only grinding and world pvp so far, though, we'll see how it handles Wintergrasp and bg's. Arena is still a ways off. Miss +20% mount speed like hell, though. :(

Post by Zerul

If you're not doing Arenas, skipping Unholy is a good choice since you won't need Virulence then because you're likely going to fight against random/incompetent healers if anything. You're going to do a little less damage lacking Tundra Stalker, but hey, you got Rune Tap.

Pretty sure skipping 2h specialization is a big mistake.

Post by Kurtosis

After some more playing with this build, I respec'd back to my standard UH all-around build.

This haste/crit-dependent Frost build is fun, but good for only one thing - pvp with a pocket healer, preferably one that can unsnare you.

Can't tank even non-heroics, which eliminates pug tanking, and makes AoE leveling/grinding/skinning alot more work. It's also heavily dependent on high base crit rating, since Killing Machine only procs off Autoattacks, which I don't have enough of yet.

Once dual specs get here and I finish questing and gear up w/ high-crit gear, and get into Arenas, this may become one of my saved specs. But till then, will stick with the tried and true UH.

Noob@Frost, 15/56/0 or 0/53/18 for pvp?

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