Still Undecided, PvP...

Post by JASP01

So.. My Hunter has been PvP'ing relatively casually for a bit. I do take everything I do at lv 85 to heart, and I make sure I know damned well everything there is to what I need to do, down to the last little details. That being said, I PvP "casually" because my Hunter is my alt, and I don't PvP on a regular basis. That being said, when I do, I make sure to pull my best...

But. I mainly do 2s, and random BGs. I've been MM.... And liking some aspects, others, not so much. I like how much I can screw with the enemy... I hate how my HP regen sucks (Chimera Shot just doesn't seem like enough), and how at close range, it's Deterrence, Disengaged, followed by "Distract Sho--- dead...". Of course there's Concussive Barrage and such.... But, BM can dish out damage at close range...

But. BM has a lot less utility. So... I'm really conflicted. I can play sophisticated play styles "with ease", but... For what I'm doing, even though MM has been going well, I'm... Kinda stuck as to whether or not I should just go BM, so that way if someone decides to eat my face, I can eat theirs... Of course, MM has all of its strengths too...

So. I guess this is my question. In random BGs and in 2s, does BM show a -notable- difference from MM in terms of longevity? Thank you!

Post by Edimmu

Post by JASP01

Thank you! I'm glad to hear this. BM has been an appealing idea (I love Spirit Beasts), but the idea of respeccing for something that may not be worth it, and may pay off less was frightening. Hearing this really reassures me; thank you!

Post by Kaitain

Post by JASP01

In my opinion, yes. I run a BM draenei hunter with spirit beasts, and the amount of heals is just silly compared to MM (during 2's in 1 minute i'm doing around 120k healing, though gift included, can be even more if i have time to change pets).
Also, the extra trinket from bestial wrath is helpful, plus the stun is better against melees. same goes with crouching tiger. Against casters, i do miss silencing shot and readiness, but i think it's worth the trade.
PS: getting access to a disarm (42 sec cd), another stun (3sec, 31,5 sec cd), can be gamebreaking, especially if u lock on a target and change pets accordingly.

@Edimmu, those are strange reasons. BM has some advantages, they're just not any of those. Bestial Wrath is not a trinket anymore. All specs can get the pet disarms, the stun is not good (too short, too slow to activate). Crouching Tiger is a very good talent though.

If you use Readiness well, MM does have far superior survivability. 2x Trap Snares (with Entrapment), 2x Scatter, 2x Disengage, 2x Deterrence, 2x Master's Call, 2x Silence, 2x Feign. BM has good survivability with a dedicated healer from Spirit Bond (the 10% more heals bit mainly) and Crouching Tiger. Whilst BM has decent self heals, Spirit Mend is really the only thing that will influence a short bout of combat, but the downside is this: Roar of Sacrifice is the one of the best defensive CD in the game when the burst is high, and it's not available to Spirit beasts. Cannot be crit! Recklessness? Roar. Shadow Dance? Roar. Avenging Wrath? Roar. Incoming Shatter combo? Roar. It will save your ass so much. Use it on team mates too.

My advice is keep practising with MM. As your skill improves it gets better and better. BM if you want to do OKish with less effort (which is fine). The nice thing about hunter PvP is a does have a pretty high skill cap. The more you do it the more you learn.

I'll admit I did not think to use Readiness with defensive CDs-- I just used it offensively to get an insta-Rapid Fire back.

However, that's only once every 5 minutes. BM has survivability for more than just once every 5 minutes. The stun is also really good to burn down more defensive players, or provide a window of opportunity with offensive.

I have tried both, and found that I like BM more. I can image MM would get much better with practice, but in the end, BM still has self-healing (more than Chimera Shot), and has much more burst damage to tear down healers and such (versus MM which must hope that, at most, 2 Silencing Shots and a Widow's Venom is enough to take them down).

Also keep in mind that if you use a defensive pet, you lack the Roar of Courage-- if you have a partner that can supplement this that's great, but otherwise you'll be missing out on a lot of extra damage you could be giving.

Edit: Thanks again Edimmu for suggesting that I try it!

Post by Edimmu

As strange at it may seem, they work, atleast for me. Remember, this is a casual bg point of view. I'm currently not playing, but last time bestial wrath was an extra trinket, if they changed it, /shakefists:))

Now about the stun, I use it just like a monkey "stun" would be in MM. A rogue going to dance on you you? &*!@ him up with it, since it's a 15 sec buff, I use it to anticipate an opponent and counter it. As slow as it is, it is better against melee in every case than the silencing shot.

MM and readiness. Yeah, it kicks ass, no doubt about it. My favourite is double disengage, or rapid fire, instant aimed, chim readiness chim, refresh rapid fire (not many can survive this). Thing is though, you rarely get to use 2x all your abilities, mostly you either burst and use it, or 2x deterrence. MM is good, even better in arena. But in a random bg, BM is just better to survive, when I played MM it was use cds, burst someone down, then hide in camo till cooldowns and readiness is back up, that was kinda lame. In BM due to CTHC i can just go on with kiting till my cooldowns are back again.

Roar... well, I don't miss it. As BM I kite warriors easy during reck, usually tranq wings or save deterrence for it, stun the rogues, and blow mages up (mostly:P), usually in a bg I can anticipate when will mages use pet nova and masters call it, or deterrence the deep, and when not, that probably would not have saved me anyway. Only time when i trully miss it is on flagcarriers, but then again i can just call the pet out during a scatter.

Bottom line, if I would queue with a healer, would probably find MM's tricks more funny, you have more tools in MM to outplay someone. However, without healer MM is kinda a free kill. When not on my hunter I usually play feral or disc, and it's kinda lame to see a disc priest chasing a hunter... I woudn't do that to a BM, by the time i'd nuke through their heals deterrence would be back again, and reinforcements on their way. As feral, Bm is harder due to stun, and shorter disengages, plus I usually stick to hunters, so when they are min ranged the pet and kill command still does some damage, while in MM, they can only try to make a gap or scare beast, and waste time casting while i'm lifeblooming myself.

Long story short, (ran out of bricks for the wall o' text:P) In bg's BM helped me survive longer, and that was due to CTHC, heals, and the stun(s). Even in arenas when on low MMR, as a BM i won 1vs2 a few games, but never as an MM.

But oh well, maybe it's just more fitting to my playstyle, I find BM's resilient nature more fitting than to blow someone up easy but be close to useless alone. It's just me though, others can find it quite the other way around:)

Post by Kaitain

Yes indeed, it does come down to what you prefer. Which sort of makes the OP a bit pointless.

Swapping anecdotes is often pointless too, as it presupposes people are talking about opponents with the same skill level which is never the case. For example if the Rogue you stun after he opens on you has his trinket up, you're going to eat Ambush spam crits regardless. I've even had rogues see that I was BM and blind my pet immediately after opening and ofc the Spirit Beast has no trinket (Bullheaded). Roar of Sacrifice is something that helps hugely against any class for a nice long 12 seconds, and nobody can do much to counter it.

But anyways, MM + cunning/tenacity pet has way more utility than the other specs, both on paper and in practice, but if you don't use that utility then it might as well not be there. BM has a more straightforwards sort of power. Both are effective in BGs. Both are fun.

Post by Edimmu

Or, you could have roar of sacrifice on a 42 sec cd instead of 1 minute, have the rogue possibly waste his trinket on intimidation (back in 42 sec), and have a 5 sec root (28 sec cd) with a silithid (Hive Controller), or a 30 yard range 3 second stun on 31,5 sec cd (Jadefang)

The stun is really a competition for a second scatter, or the root for a second trap,and these aren't tied to a 3 min cd. Also, I couldn't find info anywhere that Bestial Wrath got changed that it's no longer a second trinket, might wanna check on that.

I find
MM + cunning/tenacity pet has way more utility than the other specs
arguable, given if it's a random BG/ world PvP point of view.
Yes, MM is good, but BM is too. I'll kill rogues as BM, you kill them as MM.

Due to MM being better in arena everyone underestimates BM way too much.

(Edit: links lol)

Still Undecided, PvP...

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