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The 18/53 raid healing build and its playstyle.
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Post by
OscarDivine
and what's this nonsense about Bubbling increasing your HPS? I really don't understand your logic or even why it matters in the slightest.
Very simple really. My shield is a 1.5-2.25k instant heal with a 6.5k shield on top all wrapped up in an instant cast. Should the target need that shield (because it got hit again) the shield is most hps that can be done to the target.
Again Renew would do the job... and you spec for it... why not use it? It's also instant cast.
In addition, and not really an hps argument, so much as it's an hpm argument, if the target didn't get hit again and so didn't need the shield then nothing was lost as the shield stays on there for 30 seconds anyway.
Mana was lost and you didn't do any good healing. Preventative healing that never did anything = something lost, nothing gained.
I also raid regularly with a disco priest and we work well together. How often have you played with a Holy priest that shields? Are you speaking from experience or not?
No, you're the only priest on this forum who actually plays a priest and has access to other priests like disco priests... Of course I do. and yes I raid with another disco priest. What is with your arrogance? I promise you: your poo does stink and you will one day know just how bad even if you can't smell it today.
I agree with Paolo, your playstyle is quite selfish and not at all team-oriented. You're not the hero. You're part of a team of heroes.If you really think a playstyle that focus's on abilities that don't show up well on the meters and the premise behind which is to lighten the mana constraints of the other healers by allowing them to leverage their most efficient heals is selfish then I really have to wonder what your definition of team work is.
Er... How about we simplify it to: What I do doesn't hinder what the others are trying to do to accomplish the same goal.
besides, what you just said isn't what you're doing either.
on an unrelated note, if multiple players are saying the same thing about your attitude toward this forum and your apparent attitude in raids, shouldn't you at least stand back and ... check yourself?
Post by
ignayshus
1) Regarding Renew, look at my priorities list.
Renew is preferred to Shield UNLESS the target is dangerously low on hp. The point of the shield used is to prevent them from dying SHOULD they take another hit, buying time for other heals to fill the gap. In that situation Renew is too slow.
The only downside of course is if that target takes absolutely no damage at all in the next 30 seconds, which can be predicted in only a few narrowly defined circumstances. In that case you can consider it overhealing of which nobody is innocent and tbh about which rarely should anyone feel guilty unless it's so far outside the average.
2) I asked specifically if you've played with another Holy Priest that shields a lot. It has nothing to do with ego or anything else beyond, I am being told by you and others that I will step on disco's toes and therefor it's a selfish playstyle.
What I wanted to know was are you guessing or have you experienced the problem you say will exist? I ask because I've been playing the spec (or variants of it) for the last month with a disco in the raid about half the time and we aren't having the problems you say we will be having.
My point was guessing is all well and good, but I'm telling you, as someone that's actually tested it, that the problem doesn't exist.
3) How many times do I have point out that my playstyle doesn't impede anyone elses? How many times do I have to point out that the premise is to leverage smart heals like ProM, CoH, WG, and CH?
Funny thing re: the brickwall comment, I was thinking the same thing about a few of you.
Honestly I don't understand why you guys are on the attack. You act like I'm throwing shields around all willy nilly, cramping disco's style in order to garner adulation as a healing superstar.
Do you realize how silly that sounds from where I sit?
Take a step back and realize that shields make up a small percentage of my total casts (about 8% of all spells cast) over the course of a night. And while that's probably 8 times more than a flash healer would cast it, it's still a very small portion of my total spells. I treat it like a mini-Guardian Spirit to buy time for everyone's heals to land on critically low players.
So can we please chill out a bit? Maybe I should post a percentage by spellcast and healing done. That way you can see I'm working with disco, not against it.
Post by
OscarDivine
You are making no sense at all to me now Ig. You throw THREE WHOLE talent points into Improved shields... for 8% of your total cast spells? That's a complete waste of 3 good talent points, and I among others would refuse to get behind such a spec. Seriously? Is it really that worth the 3 points for such a small amount of spells cast? Go throw a renew and don't worry about the rest. There are 4 or 5 other healers who will have likely already thrown heals on the player by the time your GCD ends.
and for the record, I play as both a Holy and a Disco healer. and yes the problem DOES exist. As a disco healer, I have a bubble-happy Holy priest who did throw around a few shields and I wasn't able to get my mana back. so... my response to you is that while it may work in YOUR raid and it isn't a problem in YOUR raid, it may be a problem in others.
I'm sure that your play style doesn't impede the other members in YOUR Raid but that doesn't mean that it won't impede the play style of other priests in OUR raids.
You say you're thinking out of the box, but you don't seem to want to step out of it.
And I would hardly call a bubble a "mini-guardian spirit".
Post by
ignayshus
Circle of Healing 339 12.9% 3,085,164 21.6%
Prayer of Mending 386 14.7% 2,577,452 18.0%
Renew 989 37.6% 3,510,235 24.6%
Shield 161 6.1% 1,176,294 8.2%
Flash Heal 618 23.5% 1,986,459 13.9%
Prayer of Healing 86 3.3% 1,453,767 10.2%
Binding Heal 39 1.5% 328,100 2.3%
Greater Heal 14 0.5% 93,090 0.7%
Divine Hymn 1 0.0% 84,139 0.6%
Total 2633 14,294,700
Surge of Light Procs 483
Holy Concentration Uptime 21.50% Overall
Holy Concentration Uptime 35.80% During Boss Fights
Post by
ignayshus
Seriously Oscar, relax.
What problems were you specifically having? Was your Holy priest throwing bubbles on the MT, the OTs, the raid?
If it's all 3, yeah I agree there's an issue. There's really no reason for him to throw it on the MT, and little reason to put in on the OT's. If him putting it on the raid is the problem, how was that a problem for you?
I didn't put overheal percentages up but my overheal on shields clocked in at 11.4% calculated.
That tells me that the great majority of the time the shield was a) necessary and b) fully consumed. That they were consumed to such a degree implies that at least some of the time, without that shield, the player would have died. Considering that, the mini-gs analogy is an apropriate one.
Post by
OscarDivine
okay that's great but that still doesn't change the problem with wasting 3 points into slightly better shields that you're hardly using anyway... I don't understand the logic there.
Post by
ignayshus
on an unrelated note, if multiple players are saying the same thing about your attitude toward this forum and your apparent attitude in raids, shouldn't you at least stand back and ... check yourself? To clarify, by multiple you mean yourself and Paolo?
Two people with whom which have no experience with me in raid (or anyone else with whom I raid).
You'll have to excuse me if I consider your personal opinion of me (not my build or playstyle as described in this thread) as less than informed and entirely irrelevant.
I don't make presumptions about you that I have no basis making nor could I possibly know. Instead I choose to focus on direct concerns, objections and opinions of the playstyle and the build as it supports it.
Post by
ignayshus
okay that's great but that still doesn't change the problem with wasting 3 points into slightly better shields that you're hardly using anyway... I don't understand the logic there.
For the same reason I put a point in Guardian Spirit, 2 points in Healing Focus, 4 points in Divine Fury and 3 points in Test of Faith.
I don't need it often, but when I need it... I really need it.
I also NEED at least 1/3 of the Shield to open Mental Agility, which is particularly powerful in this build, though the later points of it less so.
Post by
217276
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
OscarDivine
I now count 3.
Post by
ignayshus
In the topic title you advertise the spec as a raid healing spec and I agree with a lot of your choies. The spec is very similar to my own, but I really don't understand how the shield comes into the picture for raid healing.
I very often shield players when they are getting low on health or for some reason is targed by a mob. I do this even though there is a discipline priest in the raid and I do it with his blessing. The shield are to prevent deaths when the mob usually would one shot someone not geared for tanking or to instantly give somone more health when they are getting too low. In the last case I'm usually dependant on someone else to actually heal the player, becuase the global cooldown would make me too slow.
Still, I really can't afford to spend 3 points in increasing it's size with 15%. The 15% might save somone sometime, but the shield will for most part be big enough anyway. I also believe a slighly bigger Circle of Healing can save just as many players as a bigger Shield. They are harder to spot, but they are there. And the talents that I prefere will boost more than Circle of Healing. It will even increase the size of the shield a little bit.
I assume whhat you mean to say is that you'd put two of those three points in Blessed Resillience?
It's something I considered, but from my perspective adding 2% to a heal that hits an individual for 2.5k only adds 50 hit points which is going to improve CoH's performance over the long haul, but it's not going to save someone (or at the very least it's less likely to save someone than an extra 650 hp that the 2 points spent in shield would provide).
Probably comes down to personal preference, but I agree that 2 pts in BR would pad my numbers a bit on the meters, though I'd be more likely to take those points and put them into BnS, but that's just me.
Post by
ignayshus
I now count 3.Exo isn't wagging on my character as a person, only how he would spend two points differently.
You two are still alone on that one.
Post by
razzem
For hybrid builds, I don't think using PW:S often is mana-cost effective UNLESS you have Soul Warding. If you aren't using it that often, you have to ask if it's worth 2 talent points to get 10% more effect from your shield, instead of leaving it at 5% and filling out Mental Agility with the points put elsewhere in deep holy. Where the points do more for you is a matter of numbers and what holy talents are picked and what fights you are in.
Personally, now, just as much as Burning Crusade, Mental Agility is an incredible talent. Back in BC I went 5/5 MA + full Holy and imo, it's worth every point of it, and now that it's only 3 talent points it's only gotten better.
Honestly, Ig, if you think that those 2 points more in Imp PW:S are worth it to you, I'd roll with it. I don't think you lose or gain anything major one way or the other.
IMO, getting 3/3 mental agility is better than have those 4 points in Deep Holy. But I prefer efficiency, so I'm somewhat biased. Anyway, it's a fine variation, I'm sure you'll do just fine with it. It's really no different than the old Mental Agility build from BC, and that one was great.
ps- Didn't you say you wanted this thread to be controversial? I see good arguments both for and against your build, so I think the thread accomplished it's purpose :D
Post by
OscarDivine
He's right, you wanted controversy.
But either way, shields aren't something we need to spec for as holy priests. I think we can all agree on that, now can't we?
Post by
ignayshus
Like I said in the beginning, I really do want the feedback.
Fair warning, Soul Warding is losing half it's efficiency value in the next patch or two (going from a 30% reduction to a 15% reduction) if it hasn't already.
The only reason I didn't go deeper into Mental Agi, is that the last two points are 25% less mp5 than the first and if I throw those two points instead at shield then it's hpm becomes respectable.
With 3 points I get:
Shield: 9.1 hpm with one chance to proc regen.
Renew: 6.4 hpm (assuming 1 tic only) but it's got two chances to proc regen.
Flash Heal: 8 hpm with one chance to proc regen.
It's certainly not the mana saver that an extra 6% would be, but I think it's a good balance between throughput when I need it and longevity.
You really could go with just 1pt in Shields I suppose and take BnS leaving you with a shield that was 7.8 hpm and 830hp smaller or dump them into Mental Agi for more regen.
Post by
ignayshus
He's right, you wanted controversy.
But either way, shields aren't something we need to spec for as holy priests. I think we can all agree on that, now can't we?
No, I think you have several viable options for those two points.
Shields - mixed throughput and efficiency heavy applied to one spell
BR - throughput lightly applied to all spells
BnS - pure utility
MAgi - efficiency applied to most spells.
Take your pic for which one's best, I think a good argument can be made for any of them.
My preference of course is for the shield atm, though BnS still calls to me.
Post by
karlusdavius
In all due respect. The attitude of many posters here has become increasingly degrading. I found myself getting increasing angry at many people who just reply with nothing but attitude in order to provoke a reaction. As you all well know i myself gave many reactions to some threads recently that im not proud of.
Maybe you should all chill and hold off on the e-peen flex, Grab a beer and just play some WoW. Take some time out.
Because at the moment the attitude of this entire board is nothing but /flex, and its telling in everyone.
The answer to this thread is simple. If it works for you then great, just don't think that it will be everyone's cup of tea. If it doesn't work for you then great, continue to play you spec you love and enjoy because you know it's better.
or alternatively,
Check out this comments section
Post by
OscarDivine
Well Ig, you've still yet to convince me of your superior build. I cannot agree with anything you've said regarding your use of shielding and the value of the points into the spec for better shields. And since the discussion seems to be at an argumentative stalemate, I'm going to bow out. It was never an e-peen flex fight for me. Your logic just isn't working for me and I just can't agree with it. As a suggestion Ig - the language you use is condescending. Don't do that. It can breed contempt for you by other players like me.
I'll check in to see for anything new that may perk my interest.
btw - Karl I do remember interjecting in that thread you're referring to.
Post by
Aldones
I have to agree w/ Oscar for the most part. Shielding usually isn't holy's job, nor is it anwhere near as effective as a disc's shield, even if you take
Improved Power Word: Shield
.
Disc has numerous effects that increase the effectiveness of PW:S that holy doesn't.
Rapture
Borrowed Time
Soul Warding
Focused Power
(stacks w/ the 5% gained from
Twin Disciplines
)
Renewed Hope
(though I fully understand shielding 1 target is sufficient for 100% uptime on this buff and disc still gets the bennifites from your
Weakened Soul
)
Then we get an additonal 6% cheaper casts by maxing out
Mental Agility
Discipline takes all of these talents in our natural build, including Imp PW:S, whereas you go out of your way for this.
Since it hasn't been mentioned yet either, I'm going to post the formula for calculating your PW:S.
total shield = { * sp} * * d(iPW:S) + base shield
In other words...
Disco
total shield = 1.2(sp) * 1.09 * 1.15 + 2230
Ignatious
total shield = .8(sp) * 1.05 * 1.15 + 2230
Normal Holy
total shield = .8(sp) * 1.05 + 2230
Going w/ say 3000 sp this gives your absorption 6743 (disc), 5128 (ignatious), 4750 (normal holy).
Keep in mind that both disc and ignatious will heal 20% (critable) that amount instantly to the target.
Unless the mechanics have changed, this is where we stand. When it comes to those 3 talents, you are using them to gain an extra 400ish absorption (that might not even be needed) for 6% of your spells.
I agree that holy should use thier shields when needed, but even 6% is a little high (your more specced for it, so I understand). You've also stated that you do everything possible not to impeed on disc's playstyle, which is good for obvious reasons.
You also glyph your PW:S, which makes me ask: Is it really worth using 33% of your major glyphs on something that only affects 6% of your casts?
Post by
karlusdavius
btw - Karl I do remember interjecting in that thread you're referring to.
Yes, and i glad you did.
Anybody else not the the little text option boxes on new posts?
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