in your browser.
Return to board index
Warning: Hardcore Lore paradox below.
Those of you who follow my
will remember that I mentioned a blog (in the works) about the history of Azeroth, since its very beginning (presumably when the Titans found it). Well, I've been working on it for the past few hours (and many hours before that), and there is something that bugs me. Blizzard clearly doesn't know its Lore, even on a grand scale. There isn't a clear timeline. I am going to provide a short explanation and list of sources, showing where the paradoxes kick in. Now, bear in mind, I am looking for understanding here - it's clear that I am either blind, or Blizz doesn't know what's going on. I just want to find which version looks more acceptable (or less paradoxical) to you, so I can focus on it in the blog.
Here's what I have:
- It says that the Titans found Azeroth, along with the Old Gods, somewhere between 147k years ago and 65k years ago (-147k and -65k from now on). The war against the Old Gods, and the shaping of the world ended roughly -64k, which is when the Dragonflights were created. Presumably the Well of Eternity was created before the Dragonflights, as it was part of the world and it needed to be finished before the Titans tinkered with dragons.
The Old Gods and the Ordering of Azeroth
- Here we have yet another confirmation that the Old Gods had already infected Azeroth when the Titans arrived. The Titans fought them, defeated them, and then started shaping the world, creating races (e.g. Earthen), etc.
The Lorekeeper of Norgannon in Uldaman
- says a few things about the Earhen. What we care about is that destabilizations in their (stone-like) structure occur in high-stress environment (i.e. their stone turns into flesh).
The Curse of Flesh
Tribunal of Ages event
reveal more, but mix the time! Both articles claim that the Curse of Flesh was either manually devised, or somehow related to the Old Gods; in other words they were the reason for the Curse. And when the Titans found out about this Curse (or destabilization, according to the previous bullet), they examined its cause (the Old Gods), and after being unable to destroy it, they decided to contain it inside the host (Azeroth). The latter article points out that in the early stages of Azeroth's development (whenever that is), the world and its defensive mechanisms (Earthen included) were affected by a form of corruption - Old Gods. This very strongly suggests that the Old Gods came to the scene after the Earthen.
's page comes up with something completely new. It claims that the the Earthen (Series Two that is) were still stone creatures up until the War of the Ancients. And it was only after the Sundering that they experienced environment stressful enough to cause them to fall pray to the Curse of Flesh, and be transformed into dwarves.
I think there is more, but this is the basics. What was first - Old Gods or Earthen? Did the Titans create the Earthen as they arrived on Azeroth, and were the Earthen 'corrupted' later on, so the Titans can find the OGs and lock them? Or did the Titans find the OGs, lock them, create the Earthen, who then suffered from the Curse somehow?
I thought the Old Gods were already on Azeroth, with their Elemental Lords enjoying causing chaos and destruction. Then the Titan's arrived, the Titan-Old God War occured, the Old Ones were sealed into the planet as destroying them would have destroyed the world itself.
After that point, the Ordering of Azeroth began, with the Titan's crafting the world out of the madness of the Old God's, and then the Earthen were first forged. I remember reading in the Earthen page that during the Sundering, the stone people went back into hiding, hurt badly by the destruction to the world, and when some awoke, they were slowly de-evolving/evolving into what we now know as dwarves and troggs.
So possibly, the Curse of Flesh begin at some point between the Sundering to when the first true Dwarf stepped out of Uldaman (and I could be completely wrong of course).
I think the Titans shaped the world, kept it in order etc. And the Old Gods came afterwards. I think the Curse of Flesh started in the Titan v Old God war though.
I interpret it as this: the Old Gods and Titans are immortal enemies, sort of like the Naaru and Burning Legion.
, this is a sound theory... if you exclude half of my arguments :P The Tribunal of Ages specifically says that the reason the Curse of Flesh struck the Earthen was because of the Old Gods' infection/corruption/parasitism. And then the Titans came back to the planet, were angry, fought the Old Gods and locked them. And since the Tribunal of Ages is the most recent source of information (as well as the only one that contradicts the rest), I'd normally go with it. You know, what does Blizzard care about stuff released 5 years ago? If an ingame event from 2008-2009 says something, and a source from 2004-2005 says something else, you'd go with the recent one. But what if there are 10 sources from 2004 that contradict the one from 2008?
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Sorry Argent, was just re-reading the Tribunal of Ages event diaolgue, and saw something I missed before:
Abedneum: Designation: Old Gods. Old Gods rendered all systems, including Earthen defenseless in order to facilitate assimilation. This matrix destabilization has been termed the Curse of Flesh. Effects of destabilization increased over time.
Brann: Old Gods eh? So they zapped the Earthen with this Curse of Flesh. And then what?
Kaddrak: Accessing. Creators arrived to extirpate symbiotic infection. Assessment revealed that Old God infestation had grown malignant. Excising parasites would result in loss of host.
Brann: If they killed the Old Gods Azeroth would have been destroyed.
Kaddrak: Correct. Creators neutralized parasitic threat and contained it within the host. Forge of Wills and other systems were instituted to create new Earthen. Safeguards were implemented and protectors were appointed.
Brann: What protectors?
Kaddrak: Designations: Aesir and Vanir or in common nomenclator Storm and Earth Giants. Sentinel Loken designated supreme. Dragon Aspects appointed to monitor evolution of Azeroth.
Brann: Aesir and Vanir. Okay. So the Forge of Wills started to make new Earthen. But what happened to the old ones?
Marnak: Additional background is relevant to your query. Following global combat between-
Brann: Hold everything! The Aesir and Vanir went to war? Why?
Marnak: Unknown. Data suggests that impetus for global combat originated with prime designate Loken who neutralized all remaining Aesir and Vanir affecting termination of conflict. Prime designate Loken then initiated stasis of several seed races including Earthen, Giant and Vrykul at designated holding facilities.
Brann: This Loken sounds like a nasty character. Glad we don’t have to worry about the likes of him anymore. So if I’m understanding you lads the original Earthen eventually woke up from this statis. And by that time this destabily-whatever had turned them into our brother dwarfs. Or at least dwarf ancestors. Hm? What if it wasn't the Old Gods that set up the Curse of Flesh, or atleast wasn't the ones who applied it to the Earthen races, what if it was Loken, after he placed the seed races in stasis, that introduced the Curse to their "matrix's" at that point?
I still believe the Old Gods were on Azeroth from the beginning, and it might have been the Titan's need to put Order to the universe that woke them up?
That would be out of question again. We have the Earthen being "zapped" by the Curse, the Titans finding out about it, neutralizing the parasitic threat, and only then implementing safeguards and protectors - Loken among them.
I am also a supporter of the idea that the Old Gods have been chilling on Azeroth for long before the Titans found the world. But the cursed Tribunal contradicts that...
Abedneum: Accessing prehistoric data. Retrieved. In the beginning Earthen were created to-
Brann: Right, right! I know that the Earthen were made of stone to shape the deep reaches of the world but what about the anomalies? Matrix non-stabilizing and whatnot.
Abedneum: Accessing. In the early stages of its development cycle Azeroth suffered infection by parasitic, necrophotic symbiotes.
Brann: Necro-what? Speak bloody common will ya?
Abedneum: Designation: Old Gods. Old Gods rendered all systems, including Earthen defenseless in order to facilitate assimilation. This matrix destabilization has been termed the Curse of Flesh. Effects of destabilization increased over time. Wait, look at the wording; "In the early stages of it's development cycle", that might go with orginal time line, where it was said the Titan's arrived on Azeroth, started the forging of the world, then had to leave for some reason and returned later to discover the Old Gods were there.
So, it might be that orginal Curse of Flesh actually occured when the OId Gods freed themselves from wherever they were hiding after the Titans left, and began their attempts to restore the World to chaos and insanity. They were here on Azeroth, but they weren't willingly to make a move when it seemed like the Titan's could just re-seal them, they waited till they left the world in the hand of the Watchers or whatever.
So you are suggesting that the Titans fought the Old Gods once, as soon as they found Azeroth, and then fought them again when they discovered the nasty stuff they did to the Earthen, sealing them again?
This thread is getting 5 times more views than replies btw :P
Feel free to comment, even if you are not feeling confident in your knowledge. Sometimes those who think they know everything miss the most obvious things.
I still think that the Old Gods and Titans are enemies across the cosmos. Not just in Azeroth...
Maybe the Nathrezim are a sub-species of Old Gods which broke off? After all, they act similarly to the Old Gods don't they? Mess your mind up, divide and conquer?
Or their the true avatars of the Old Gods, who set up Sargeras's fall to pave the way for the Old Ones to destroy the Titans and bring true chaos and destruction across the universe?
Woah, hold on!
There are a few things we don't have paradoxes for yet, and one of them is that the Titans encountered the Old Gods for the first time on Azeroth. And the Burning Legion is composed of many races the original Legion (mostly Nathrezim in its core) conquered and converted. As for a connection between the Nathrezim and the Old Gods... the major difference is that the Old Gods want to destroy, not control. While the Nathrezim are willing to destroy in order to control.
Woah, hold on!
There are a few things we don't have paradoxes for yet,
and one of them is that the Titans encountered the Old Gods for the first time on Azeroth.
Yeah you are right there, I can't remember exactly where i read it, but wasnt it that when the Titans discovered the old gods on azeroth they were
at how evil they were?
Of course this could be the first time they encountered them, but that doesnt mean there arent others on other planets that the Titans are battling right now ^^
My take on the lore:
The Titans come to Azeroth, which is primarily inhabited by the elementals. The Old Gods are not encountered at this time - they are either hidden or possibly "off world" (their inspiration, Lovecraft's Old Ones, were extraterrestrials themselves, so it could be possible).
They banish the elementals to the elemental planes, and begin the ordering of the planet. To this end they create the Earthen (mk.1), Giants, Mechagnomes, Vrykul, etc. Since this process will take centuries, the Titans leave Azeroth temporarily.
The Old Gods, alerted to the absence of their elemental minions, awaken/return to find
Goldilocks sleeping in their bed
the planet being renovated. Finding the Titans' creations resistant to "assimilation", they infect them with the Curse of Flesh.
The Titans return to find their creations infected and the Old Gods causing trouble. They realize (possibly after killing one) that the Old Gods are now insidiously tied into the planet itself, and cannot be permanently removed without destroying it. They opt for imprisoning them below the planet's surface.
The Titans appoint Loken to supervise the Old Gods' captivity. They decide not to destroy their now cursed creations, but leave the Forge of Wills so that new, uninfected Earthen (mk.2) can be created. The Dragon Aspects are empowered to watch over the evolution of their "seed races". They depart once again.
Several millenia later, the Curse of Flesh has already transformed the Giants and Vrykul, though the Earthen (mk.1) and the Mechagnomes still remain close to their original state. Vrykul women start giving birth to underdeveloped children, and despite King Ymiron's edict that they be killed, many decide to move far away to raise them.
War breaks out between the Storm and Earth Giants. Loken ends the conflict and subsequently orders all cursed creations (Earthen , Giants, Vrykul and Mechagnomes) to be placed into stasis.
This covers most of the lore as presented. I believe some of the entry on the Earthen is not accurate, as is somehow assuming several "runs" of earthen being created although only two are mentioned in their source material (the Tribunal of Ages quest).
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
How real life things work =/= WoW
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
As far as I can see, it went something like this:
Titans arrive on Azeroth, they find the Old Gods, fight them and seal them up, they create the Earthen and oversee how things unfold (ie: they don't immediately leave).
When the Earthen start to show signs of corruption the Titans investigate, they discover that the Old Gods' prisons aren't strong enough which allows some of their chaotic influence to seep through. So the Titans re-enforce the current prisons or place the OG's in even stronger confinements, seal up the affected Earthen and create new Earthen.
The Titans leave, yadda yadda yadda the Well of Eternity 'splodes, the OG's prisons start to weaken again and the Curse of Flesh affects the new Earthen.
There are probably some cracks in all of that, but it's the best that I could come up with in about 20 minutes.
Despite the fact that there is some contradictions on this topic, there are still some facts that are indisputable.
Titans created the Earthen, Mechagnomes, Vrykul, Giants, etc.
Old Gods used the Elemental Lords as their servants
Titans fought the Old Gods and the Elemental Lords
The original Titan creations were afflicted by the Curse of Flesh
(though not in that order)
While we can continue to speculate what happened, there is still one more question that is raised in my mind:
What were the Trolls and Tauren doing this whole time? They aren't Titan created so where did they come from. Were there Trolls and Tauren during the battle against the Old Gods?
That is the question I want answered (although a bit off topic).
You are not logged in. Please
to post a reply or
if you don't already have an account.
Connect with Wowhead
Other Fanbyte Sites
Hearthstone Top Decks
Final Fantasy XI
© 2021 Fanbyte