Varian Thread

Post by 229054

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Adamsm

There's always something to discuss, as long as one face other's arguments. After all, keeping everything about Varian in the Varian thread is a good way to avoid a sea of Alliance X Horde threads.

Aye yup. That's why I created this thing heh.

Post by Rankkor

Uhh, I need to remember to switch from Varian's POV to Someone-with-Wowwiki info's POV.

Sorry about that.

The point is, Varian can't fight beside the Horde if he keeps on losing lifes of commrades.

actually if varian paid attention to jaina, tirion, alextrazsa, the naaru, and others besides his chin, he would had the same POV as the wowwiki users do.

varian is not a dumb villager he's a frikking KING for the love of god, if he wanted to know all of these things he would know them, after all tyrande knows, jaina knows, thrall knows, velen knows, but varian simply play dumb

Can we please just give this thread a break until someone finds somthing new to disscuss?

can you please stop ignoring arguments that you don't have a proper defense for? you said that EVERY time the alliance works with the horde, the alliance gets betrayed, we provide evidence against it and you try to change the subject, at the very least admit u're wrong, when the alliance and horde put aside their diferences they manage to make the imposible seem easy, just because 1 out of 8 major coalitions of horde+alliance has gone wrong doesn't mean that they should go to all-out war.

and also can you please stop ignoring the fact that the new horde is diferent from the old one?

the old horde was disbanded, it's leaders are all dead, 90% of the members of the old horde are either dead, or too old to be on active duty today (save for a few exeptions such as saurfang)

the new horde is made up mostly of the orcish children who were born in captivity for a crime they did not comited, and they simply did not and do not deserve to spend the rest of their days in a cage, just for something that their ancestors did.

the old horde has done horrible crimes against azeroth, but the old horde paid the price, and it was a very high price.

the rest of azeroth has forgiven the orcs (including the aspects) so varian at some point in his life needs to let go. (and don't say "he went to a peace meeting, he can let go" because jaina and anduin had to practically drag him there, and the moment he saw garona he wen't all paranoid mode acusing thrall of betrayal without any tipe of proof, and ignoring the fact that his most trusted advisor, who also happens to have restored his memory told him that garona was under a mind-spell, the fact that he's so stuck up is proof enough that he still has not let go of the hate)

so no, don't change the subject, and at the very least admit that what you said was wrong, when the horde and alliance work togheter it never ends in betrayal and death (only 1 out of 8 dude, 1 out of 8)

and at the very least recognize that the crimes comited by the old horde can't be held against the new one, because the orcs already paid enough for what they did.

or 20 years in prison+regular beatings+torture+physical and verbal abuse+slavery and death aren't enough punishment?

Post by Patty

I'd call it hypocrisy, but meh.

And I would call this stupidity, bet meh.It is. Saying that it's okay for one person to want to commit genocide because a race weren't very nice to him, and then saying it's not okay for Sylvanas to hate humans although they ruined her life, and unlife, is completely double-standardised.

Varian wants the Horde dead.

This makes no sence
How? It's a simple statement. He wants the members of the Horde either dead or enslaved. I doubt he would let them roam freely when he wants the world rid of "Green-skinned abberations".
Garrosh wants the Alliance dead.

Nor does this....Reverse of the point about Varian.

Sylvanas wants Humans dead.

So you admit it now?She wants Humans dead. That is not the same as saying "She wants all Humans dead." But, according to your previous comments, this would not make sense. But because it's what you want to hear, it makes sense suddenly. More double-standardisation.

Garithos wanted all non-humans dead.

Garithos is deadNote the past tense? That's like saying Stalin did not want people dead because he now is dead. He still wanted them dead. His own death does not retract from that fact.

Admiral Proudmoore wanted Orcs dead.

Yes, he did.

Do you see how they are similar?

You look at this to one-dimesionaly.I'm simplifying it. Anywho, 1 dimension: Pot, kettle, black?

You see, Varian and Sylvanas can not compare... but you could compare Daelin and Sylvanas.They both want people dead. That is a comparison that can be made.

Sylvanas hates all humans, no question.Well, actually....That is questionable. She certainly wants some Humans dead, she does not definitely want all Humans dead. Some=/= All.
Daelin hates all orcs, no question.Agreed.
Varian hates orcs, but trys. Unfortenalntly for him to be justified in his waryness in the eyes of Horde players, he needs to go to the moon and look under all rocks. Seriously, how is he supposed to know who was behind everything?No...He tried twice. How many times do you think Sylvanas tried to get the Blood Elves into the Horde? I'd wager my Moonshroud that she tried more than twice. The point is, persistance is key. If he wanted what was best for his people, peace, and if he was the spirited, kind-hearted, loving King you say he is (which I do not fully doubt) Then he would persist until Peace was reached. Defias had nothing to do with the Horde, they stopped him going to the first meeting.

The Crimson ring had nothing to do with the Horde, similar to how you always claim that Blackmoore was nothing to do with the Alliance, even though Arthas talks about going to watch Thrall at a gladiator fight.

The second time, are you honestly telling me the Twilight cultists are Horde? They had Orcs in them, yes. They also had elves, dwarves and humans! Not to mention that Saurfang, an Orc, led the united offensive against AQ. C'thun's (as an old god) servants are the Twilight Hammer.

Only a fool would trust a former enemy's word.So....Thrall, Jaina, Malfurion, Tyrande, Medivh, A'dal, Velen, Lady Liadrin and many more are all fools, right? Well, we owe our existance, and races' redemptions and existances, to fools. You just called the Alliance's allies fools, do you still stand by that statement? BUT its like you said Patty, Sylvanas hates all humans, and if Varian was wrong to declare war, your the real hypocrite here.I never said she hated all humans. I said she hated Humans. all =/= not all. Varian is wrong to declare war when there are major threats. If a crazy Orc/Human/I don't know what wanted to raise the world at zombies, would you really think it's for the better if the only opposition against it is divided?

Sylvanas, for starters, is part of the high elven race which owes its existence to humanity.That's an assumption. We don't know if the Elves might have won the day in the Troll Wars, or the Second war, on their own.

Varian is part of the human race, which was attempted to be put extinct by the orcish race.As were High Elves. Also, going by your assumption, humanity owes its existance to the High Elves. If they were never taught magic by the Elves, the humans may have lost the first war far sooner, and may have even lost the Second war. See how it can be turned around?

Varian is from Stormwind, the same city that was burned to the ground by the orcs.It wasn't the only place.

Sylvanas is from Quel'Thalas, the place which, according to the RoC manuel, would have been destroyed if not for Lordaeron enforcements.See it in the eyes of an Elf. The Alliance left your homes to burn down, and then only sent some men to make it seem like they were helping. This was probably the attitude for many Elves. You also forgot to mention that a large portion of Quel'thalas was burnt to the ground by the Orcs and Forest trolls.

Get the picture now?Do you?

Varian's life was destroyed by the orc Doomhammer, who is a revered hero in the Horde's lines. Thrall wears his armor all the time, and Varian would have seen it when Doomhammer was imprisoned.Oh, so Garona, the Shadow Council, Blackhand, Gul'dan etc. Never did anything to Varian! It was all Doomhammer's fault!

Sylvanas' life was destroyed because of the same human prince whom she was well awhere destroyed Lordaeron before coming to Quel'Thalas.The Humans had been fighting the Orcs some time before Stormwind City was burnt down. They were well aware of what the Orcs were capable of. Do you see the point when flipped around?

Huge difference.Yes. In addition to what we've both mentioned, Sylvanas died. She has nothing to live for except revenge. Varian can love, he has hope for his son, Sylvanas doesn't. She is completely destroyed. Varian has emotions Sylvanas can physically not feel. Think how you would be if you couldn't love.

Stormwind has lost in the first place by the orcish race.Got its revenge with the victory of the Second war. It was rebuilt out of Lordaeron's pocket - a charitable deed.

If not for a human, Sylvanas would never have Undercity in the first place.Alternatively, it might be argued that without Alleria's troops the Alliance may have lost Capital City, and the War.

There is also the fact that her sisters are married to humans. She cannot love. Do you honestly think she cares when all she feels is hatred and desire for revenge against the Lich King?
Sylvanas can not compare to Varian, simple as that.They can, if only slightly.

And seriously, if you are saying Sylvanas is right, then you are blindly going against it.I'm not. I don't think Varian is right. Both of them want people dead, simple as that. That is a comparison that can be made.

This is like saying the guy who assassinated Abraham Lincolin (Forgot his name, I think it starts with a "B") was right because it helps the south win; in other words, you sound like a idiot.If I know, or care for, nothing about US history or politics, I don't sound like an idiot. Funnily enough, I don't really know or care about US history.

The Burning Crusade

Nope, there was a mini game where you fight each other in every area.But they banded together when it was crucial.

The SunwellVelen, Lady Liadrin, ring a bell....?

The Argent Crusade

All members where hand-picked by Tirion; not aloud to join freelyOpen to most, if not all, races.

The Cenarion Circle

Not a "major war", this is just a group of druids.

The Earthen Ring

No a "major war", this is just a group of shaman.Both together, they still show signs of unity.

Post by Rankkor

just calling the cenarion circle and erathen ring "just a group" and not a major war shows how little of lore you really have known.

the first and second war of the shifting sands were the largest battles ever to have been fought in azeroth, and were both led by a group of cenarion circle druids, leading a combined army of alliance and horde forces, in case you didn't know the pre-bc world event "opening the gates of anquiraj" was the most largest and sucessfull campaign of cooperation between the horde and the alliance, as not only they fought side by side, but even traded resourses, battle supplyes, generals and warlords all planning their actions togheter, to make the "War of the 10 hours" a total victory.

and the earthen ring fighting from the shadows the Elemental wars to prevent the return of the devastating elemental lords, such as ahune.

if you don't know the lore, then don't draw conclustions that aren't justified.

Post by Adamsm

Post by Skreeran

but I have a feeling Dark started in either BC or Wrath.That's not a very good excuse, imo. I started WoW with patch 2.3.

But let's not gang up on Darkton.

That's what Varian's for.

Post by Rankkor

Well... the First War of the Shifting Sands was just the Night Elves, Taurens, and the Dragonflights, as it happend thousand of years before Horde and the Alliance existed. But yeah, the second war was an important one

yup really important, so important indeed that durign this event, a horde warlord visists stormwind and ironforge, to update alliance players of the horde's progress in gathering resources for the war.

and likewise an alliance general visits ogrimarr and undercity to update horde players of the alliance progress (after the war both of them leave)

so, when horde and alliance cooperate with each other, 99% of the time something good comes out of it.

heh, I started playing on patch 3.0.8, and still did my research on my lore (then again I've played warcraft for the past 12 years, warcraft 1 2 and 3, with their respective expantions, and even when I didn't had money before to play here, since in venezuela this game is WAY more expensive than in america, I did read about the game, and the lore in the game.)

so nope, starting out late isn't a proper reason for not knowing, varian is a king, not a commoner, if he wanted to know he would know, if he doesn't know is because he doesn't want to know (confusing I know xD)

Post by 229054

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Post by 229054

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Post by 451455

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Post by Skreeran

We're not measuring him against what was written in BtDP, we're evaluating what he's doing now, and the effects that his actions will have, and whether you like it or not, Varian declaring war will get more people killed, and not just the Horde. Especially in the middle of this war against the Scourge and the Cataclysm.

Thus far, all the real superbeings have required a great deal of cooperation to defeat (Hyjal, Ahn'Qiraj, Dark Portal, Sunwell). This isn't the time for petty conflicts when there's a superhuman monster sitting on the Frozen Throne trying to kill us all.

Tell me: What would have happened if there were people with Varian or Garrosh's attitudes in charge during any of the events that I mentioned?

We refuse to work with the Aldor! Every time we've tried to work with them they've stabbed us in the back! *Kil'jaeden eats the world*

We refuse to work with the people who killed Cenarius! They must pay for their actions! Die! *Archimonde eats the world*

We refuse to work with the Horde! The Alliance can defeat C'thun alone! *C'thun eats the world*

The Alliance will fall before our might! The Horde shall defeat both the Alliance and the invading demons in one fell swoop! *Demon invasion eats the world*

Cooperation has worked in the past, and Varian is showing his true colors by giving up on it so soon to try to destroy the Horde instead.

Post by 451455

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Post by Skreeran

Then what happens when the next huge threat comes up and can only be beaten by the Horde and Alliance working together but Varian doesn't want to?

That's almost what happened with Yogg-Saron, and if it hadn't had been for the Kirin Tor and Explorer's League stepping up to the plate, we'd all be dead now.

What happens when the next Hyjal comes and Varian refuses to work with the Horde over petty quarrels like that?

Post by 451455

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Post by 229054

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Post by taurenmoo812

Of course, back then there was nothing wrong with working together.

The Horde has gone unchecked for to long, though. Fact, not opinion.

Oh go stick a polearm up your nose would you! Varians a facist for saying that and you support it, Fact, not opinion.

Garrosh admitting he wants Theramore destroyed and plundered

Garrosh is an outsider who doesn't reflect the horde as it stands today.

Sylvanas admitting she wants all human to die as a race

Sylvanas and the forsaken have only been part of the horde for a couple of years, and doesn't relfect the majority of them.

Vol'jin wanting to kill a Alliance leader because he has somthing he wants.

Rather then let an alliance (sub leader) carry a weapon that can kill trolls? yeah, thats a reason to sit and do nothing.

Its only more frustrating that you feel Varian needs to talk everything through, when there is clearly no need.
You just don't do that, real or fiction life.

Then he's a poor excuse for a leader, end of. The kind of leaders in the past that had only want for killing and death are the kind of leaders that lead there people to ruin, horde or alliance, as this case has been made perfectly clear time and again.

If someone attacks you, the realitiys of life are to fight back, not report in enemy terotory and hope they can keep themselves in check.

So what your saying is its alright for Varian to cast the first stone and attack the horde now because of things that happened in the past, but its not alright for the horde to know he intends to kill them and make the first move on his genocidal actions? self righteous attitude again.

You say he has not tried hard enough, but really, wise leadership comes from realizing where potenital allys are... and where helpless to stop threats are, and to take them out as fast as possible

Given your previous posts its clear you don't have a good idea of what a good leader is, so your point is lost here.

You roleplay to much, my friend. I highly doubt that.
Its 25 random adventurers who steped up to da plate. :)

Now your being a cretin, barking about why you think Varians the king of all things one minute, and then dismissing someone elses post as 'lol you roleplay to much' the next.

Post by Rankkor

easy tauren brother, no need to resort to name-calling, that's the difference between us and other more hot-headed individuals.

(I do agree with the rest of your post 100%)

Post by 451455

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Post by Adamsm

Not really, it's just you saying the same thing you've been saying all through it.

Varian Thread

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