Warrior Overhaul

Post by 985370

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Post by Zakkhar

Okey doke. Kinda got alot to ask from you guys, so sorry.
Dont be sorry for asking questions. This is first logical thing you should do when you dont know something (or search yourself). If we didint have any questions to answer, we would be bored.
1. Arms or fury?
Dps wise and utilitywise, arms. Comfortwise - arms playstyle is completely different from fury (and harder) and may not suit everyone. If you have troubles with fury that may be the case.

2. Enchants, glyphs, gems?
i use landslide for each weapon when i can, Gem +40 str or +50 Str when i can afford it, which im pretty sure for the most part is correct, and i use Fierce lava coral for a yellow slot on my ring (or i will when i can find a JC for the cut) and reverberating shadow spirit (54 str and 3% crit effect) for helm meta slot
as well as etched shadow spinel (25 hit and str for belt)
think thats it. any thoughts?
Haste? Why haste? Haste is the worst stat for majorty of warrior specs (and hunter too). Incribed is what you should use. Crit is main contributor to your damage as it affects everything, unlike mastery which only affects part and haste which only affects autoattack.
Honestly armory link would be better than that.
General rule of gemming is maximising STR. If matching sockets lets you get more str than without or you get some bonus stats while mantaining amount of STR per item its fine. However if the socket bonus is too small just use pure bolds.

3. Weapons?
Currently i am wielding an experimental specimen slicer in my main hand, with a +40 Str gem, and landslide, And in my off hand i have a LFR Gurthalak, with Landslide
I also have the Altaraxis cudgel, with my +50 Str gem, but i couldnt afford my landslide yet so ive been sticking to gurth. What would you recommend i use?
I think your current setup is ok. Altraxis has haste and the proc from Gurthalak is amazing, but i am not sure how the proc diminishes when wielded in an offhand. Again we cant really decide without seeing rest of your gear and simulating it.

4. Reforges.
As of now i have been using wowreforge.com to reforge my gear, changing the stat weight for hit to be at least 2200, and alowing it to run with looser constraints and following that. (advice of a friend)
Could someone clarify the recommended stat weights and priorities for me for fury?
STR > exp to cap (26) = hit to 8% > crit > hit to comfortable amount (usually 11%) > mastery >>>> haste

5. Rotation.
I dont currently necessarily have a solid rotation going. i kinda just wing it
All rotations has been made a priority lists due to large amount of procs that are going on. However fury is as close to rotation as it can be:
Prio is:
Smash > Bloodthirst > Raging Blow > Slam (HS at 70+ rage).

and i throw Heroic strike in between every possible move unless im low on rage
What do you mean in between? heroic strike is off gcd and should be thrown regardless of main "rotation" only factor being rage.
Also if im too low rage for a heroic strike, and blood thirst is on cooldown, i will heroic throw just to fill the 3 second gap cause i dont like waiting for it :P
This is the moment you should be using your shout, but since you are poping it on cd you have longer pause. If you dont like to wait for stuff arms may be for you. Fury is all about waiting for stuff.

any thoughts?
Berserker rage, death wish, recklesness?

/cast Recklessness
/cast (put your dps trinket here)
/cast Battle Shout
/cast Berserker Rage
/cast Inner Rage
/cast Death Wish
Only battle shout has a gcd here so you can safely put all your %^&* in here.

Post by 985370

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Post by 985370

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Post by 226992

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Post by Zakkhar

im noticing absolutely nothing for procs when gurtha is in offhand, so maybe altaraxis is better?
So you dont get the tenatacle mindflaying your target at all?
Check your dps meter for Tentacle of the Old Ones damage.

STR > exp to cap (26) = hit to 8% > crit > hit to comfortable amount (usually 11%) > mastery >>>> haste
with 8% hit my chance to miss is sky high, seems like only since hotfix last week. donno....
It is supposed to be like that because you are dual wielding.
Wouldnt be fair if you had same hit chance as guys who just use one weapon, would it? I mean you get twice more stats/procs and your offhand is free 50% damage (offhands do 25% damage without any talents, fury has a so its 50%.

By dual wielding you basically have 27% miss rate of autoattack vs bosses.
8% hit brings that to 19%, but important part is 8% makes your specials (yellow hits) unable to miss. This is what you care about the most.
rockin like 15.4 hit chance atm with 11.39 chance to miss raid boss with special
You are reading it wrong. You got 11ish % miss rate with white hit. You got way too high hit.
You know what combat table coverage is?

When you deal a white hit vs a mob you have a chance to:
Crit - your crit chance
Miss - your miss chance (base for dual wield is 27%, base for single wield is 8%)
Get Parried (if attacking from front) - 17%
Get dodged - 6.5%
Glancing (vs anything higher levle than you, bosses included) 25%
Hit - rest

Special hits have this all but cant be glancing blows and miss rate is 8% regardles how many weapons you wield.

Now what do you prefer, hit or crit?
Hit deals normal damage, crit does double damage, procs deep wounds, and procs Flurry.
Below 8% hit you can miss your specials and thats considered dps loss, but above 8% hit, crit is more important.

i dont use beserker rage at all, didnt even have it on my bars, gonna have to start that.
Use it either when you take damage or when you have free gcd and not enraged to get raging blow up. useful macro for raging blow:
#showtooltip raging blow
/use berserker rage
/use raging blow
It will pop your raging blow if zerker rage is off cd.
Also glyph it. 5 free rage is 5 free rage.

Post a link to your armory or tell us name, realm and EU/US so we can find you.

Post by 226992

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by capitao

Post by Zakkhar

Dps wise and utilitywise, arms. Comfortwise - arms playstyle is completely different from fury (and harder) and may not suit everyone. If you have troubles with fury that may be the case.

I disagree. Fury is currently harder to play than arms.
BT every 3 sec + judging off BT priority, keeping enrage uptime, dealing with a variable rage income, all the while alternating between two different cycles (off inner rage and with it) is a LOT harder than MS > CS > OP > Slam with stance dance macros on everything.

Not that I'm complaining, single 2h is way cooler than TG or SMF and I like Arms better.
CS > MS > Op > slam btw.
Arms has different rotation with inner rage and without as well. Its not like Incite and tier is Fury only.
Fury has a "rotation" in much obvious way than arms do. As arms you are more skills to press than you have gcds and fingers, as fury you have a lot of free gcds and the skills are more predictable. You know what you will be pressing before it goes off cd.

Post by Zakkhar

Post a link to your armory or tell us name, realm and EU/US so we can find you.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/magtheridon/Kokanee/simple

It was above my post and right below his previous long post which is why you probably missed it.
Hmm, under exp caps and reforging out of exp, 2 empty sockets in 2 items, Missing Ebonsteel Belt Buckle (so 3 empty sockets), reforging away from crit, while there are other options (dafaq?), cheap enchant on hands, cheap enchant on cloak, no 50 str on bracer, no leg enchant, no boots enchant.

You can reforge the mastery of:
boots, legs, belt, wrist.
Revert back all the crit you reforged out of on:
wrist, cloak, neck,
Revert the exp you reforged out of on:
head

Or just plug yourself into mr. robot (or nvm, i did it for you) and click optimise.
It will do the following changes (bolded).
Strength 8027 +386
Agility 727
Stamina 8666
Mastery 7.95 -1.75
Attack Power 19439 +1154
Physical Hit 11.53% -2.46%
MH Expertise 6.47% +1.64%
OH Expertise 7.22% +1.64%
Physical Crit 19.70% +3.06%

Post by capitao

The MS vs CS debate has gone long ways and I've seen theorycrafting on both sides. Personally, since I can't do math, I'll stick with the MS > CS side because it leads to more MSs over the course of the fight, due to the 4 pc T13, battle trance procs and because the risk of prioritizing MS is mostly just the waste of a SD proc, which is very low (6%) and the uptime of the debuff isn't all that affected, since the cooldown can be reset at any time, whereas by delaying MS you're getting less of your heaviest hitting ability. So personally for the reasons above I'm inclined to that side of the debate.

And despite this discussion really not changing the fact that op should go Arms (better dps), I still maintain that Fury is harder. Really, I can't see where you're coming from with "your skills are more predictable" for fury...you're essentially guessing whether you're going to be able to raging blow on the next off-bt that berserker rage is on cd, whether you'll be able to slam or have to use shout, whereas Arms rotation is clockwork: I know when TfB procs, I know if it won't proc I'll just use Slam and I know when I'm getting rage from my swing.

I also didn't mention inner rage for arms because imo rage management is much easier for arms. You're frequently having to us HS outside of IR due to the rage cap being 75 effectively, overpower being very cheap, rage income through melee swings being predictable, etc, whereas, like I said, you're constantly making gambles with Fury as in "if this next melee swing hits I'll overcap and waste rage, so should I use Raging Blow now or pool for the inner rage that's coming off cd in a couple seconds?" You decide to use Raging Blow, your swings miss and now you're short on rage and have to delay inner rage activation. This just doesn't happen with arms at all.

Crap came out longer than I wanted it to.

Post by Zakkhar

The MS vs CS debate has gone long ways and I've seen theorycrafting on both sides. Personally, since I can't do math, I'll stick with the MS > CS side because it leads to more MSs over the course of the fight, due to the 4 pc T13, battle trance procs and because the risk of prioritizing MS is mostly just the waste of a SD proc, which is very low (6%) and the uptime of the debuff isn't all that affected, since the cooldown can be reset at any time, whereas by delaying MS you're getting less of your heaviest hitting ability. So personally for the reasons above I'm inclined to that side of the debate.
Excelent overview. Agreed.

And despite this discussion really not changing the fact that op should go Arms (better dps), I still maintain that Fury is harder. Really, I can't see where you're coming from with "your skills are more predictable" for fury...you're essentially guessing whether you're going to be able to raging blow on the next off-bt that berserker rage is on cd, whether you'll be able to slam or have to use shout, whereas Arms rotation is clockwork: I know when TfB procs, I know if it won't proc I'll just use Slam and I know when I'm getting rage from my swing.
Guess i am not playing it enough to have the feel and it occurs to me as more chaotic.
On the other hand, i havent played fury since early TBC (while every dps warrior was arms)m than went tanking, than when dual spec came out went pve arms and have it ever since, but i am dpsing once a year so... cant really get much from it.
I admit my "knowledge" comes mainly from reading others, who usually talk from theorycrafting perspective and anaylsing the info myself, rather than from experience, so i welcome your experience input.

I also didn't mention inner rage for arms because imo rage management is much easier for arms. You're frequently having to us HS outside of IR due to the rage cap being 75 effectively, overpower being very cheap, rage income through melee swings being predictable,
You forgot Battle trance, which can either make it easier or harder. You gotta be able to use that HS exactly on BT proc or "waste" it on Slam/MS.

Crap came out longer than I wanted it to.
I dont mind long crap (which you may have noticed).

As for what op should go into he clearly have problems with fury and maybe if he is to learn anyway it would be more effective if he learned the more dps spec. However i have seen far less nab fury warriors than nab arms warriors and even than nab fury warriors do more damage than nab arms.

Post by marklartank

3. Weapons?
Currently i am wielding an experimental specimen slicer in my main hand, with a +40 Str gem, and landslide, And in my off hand i have a LFR Gurthalak, with Landslide
I also have the Altaraxis cudgel, with my +50 Str gem, but i couldnt afford my landslide yet so ive been sticking to gurth. What would you recommend i use?
well, get that landslide because it's probably your best weapon atm with the epic gem. assuming you have 397's, i would probably use ESS and the cudgel. the tentacle proc can be very nice, but it also makes you dependent on proc rate and positioning. i've been frustrated with my 403 gurth procs - last night on madness, they only contributed 2600dps and last week on ultraxion they did a measly 1400dps. i smell a stealth nerf, but i've seen no confirmation. seems like they used to do a lot more; at this point, i would gladly trade for a 410 ESS if it would drop.

for the MH, you have to balance higher weapon damage (meaning higher special attacks) vs. tentacle procs. with good procs, the gurth may be equal, but will fall behind with bad procs.

for the OH, you're balancing stats and slightly more white damage vs. tentacle procs (which occur less in OH). most likely, the 397 wins again.

I still maintain that Fury is harder. Really, I can't see where you're coming from with "your skills are more predictable" for fury...you're essentially guessing whether you're going to be able to raging blow on the next off-bt that berserker rage is on cd, whether you'll be able to slam or have to use shout, whereas Arms rotation is clockwork: I know when TfB procs, I know if it won't proc I'll just use Slam and I know when I'm getting rage from my swing.
i don't know that it makes the rotation harder. you either are enraged, or you're not. if not, you either have zerker rage off CD or you don't. if not, slam procs are easily spotted (either with powa or with blizz indicator). if no slam proc, then just shout and/or HS. yes, it can be frustrating when you can't use RB, but i didn't feel that it added difficulty. i'll freely admit i don't play fury much, so maybe i'm missing something.

I also didn't mention inner rage for arms because imo rage management is much easier for arms. You're frequently having to us HS outside of IR due to the rage cap being 75 effectively, overpower being very cheap, rage income through melee swings being predictable, etc, whereas, like I said, you're constantly making gambles with Fury as in "if this next melee swing hits I'll overcap and waste rage, so should I use Raging Blow now or pool for the inner rage that's coming off cd in a couple seconds?" You decide to use Raging Blow, your swings miss and now you're short on rage and have to delay inner rage activation. This just doesn't happen with arms at all.
now here, i think you're oversimplifying arms. the basic rotation is pretty simple, but there are numerous decisions points that need to me made if you want to maximize dps. sure, we don't have to worry about misses, but proper HS/cooldown usage takes some practice.

BT and/or incite just proc'd - when is my next CS going to happen? am i enraged? is landslide proc up? i certainly don't want to throw out an lowly HS, but how many of these procs can i afford to wait for?

rage is creeping up and i need to burn some off - do i have enough of the above listed procs up for this to be a good time? is IR ready? how long can i wait before i hit 75 rage? if procs are bad and MS/CS is next, i can wait a bit for better procs to burn that rage. if OP is next and procs are bad, maybe i just use a weak HS and wait for a better time to dump rage. if procs are good and IR is up, i can pop it and fire off a few strong HS. first, i better check to make sure i'm not going to need DC in the next 15 seconds, though.

oh, DC is ready - is this a good time to use it? if i don't use it quick, i might cost myself an entire DC for the fight. should i use it now, or is there a cleave phase coming up i should save it for? first, i better make sure there's at least 2m until the boss hits 20%, though - otherwise, i'm going to really hurt myself in the burn phase.

so now i had to move and i see it's been 5 seconds since TfB proc'd - i better make sure and get the OP in before my MS or CS so i don't miss an entire TfB proc. unless of course slaughter is < 1.5s away from falling off, then i better use MS first instead so i don't have to waste 9s getting it built back up. oh noes, there's nothing to attack? quick, find me a squirrel so i can save my slaughter!

TfB just proc'd, so i'm smashing my CS button, but look! my 4pc just proc'd - better hurry and change to something else before i waste a GCD reapplying CS.

even the rotation itself is completely dynamic. only MS is fixed. OP is not predictable, as it can proc anywhere between 5 and 6 seconds, depending on if your MS gets delayed by 0.5s for some reason.

Post by Zakkhar

i've been frustrated with my 403 gurth procs - last night on madness, they only contributed 2600dps and last week on ultraxion they did a measly 1400dps. i smell a stealth nerf, but i've seen no confirmation. seems like they used to do a lot more; at this point, i would gladly trade for a 410 ESS if it would drop.
I think there was a stealth nerf to proc chance, so you need a to kill lot more virgins on the altar of gods of rng.

(...)
even the rotation itself is completely dynamic. only MS is fixed. OP is not predictable, as it can proc anywhere between 5 and 6 seconds, depending on if your MS gets delayed by 0.5s for some reason.
This is what i meant with the chaotic nature of arms.

Warrior Overhaul

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