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Warrior vs. pally balance (tank)
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I have both a warrior/pally
And of course they both tank. And of course the pally tank is better/easier
Going to post the main differences in why. And wondering when the fudge is blizzard going to do anything about it.
bless of sanc./imp right. fury/ shield of the temp -give 12% reduce damaged on pally (warrior a natural and only10% while in defensive stance)
imp devo. aura-increase armor gained from dev. aura by 50% plus increased healing on tank any target by 6% with your aura from any source. (gives more armor more healing then war
combat expertise/sacred duty(pally)-both fully talented give the pally14% more stam. (wars only 6% from talents)
redoubt/holy shield(pally)-This is a big issue. The pally with these 2 talents is almost 100% of the time going to block.(60% block chance) They are both active normally all the fight.
argent defender(pally)-this is the nail in the coffin. Attacks that bring you below 35% health are reduced by 20%. I tank on both a pally/warrior and this talent here makes warriors close to throw to the side. This talent is too good.
avengers shield.....-PULLS 3 targets at a distance of 30 yards that daze and does damage 30sec CD. Hows that heroic throw warriors? One target? Have to talent to make it silence? 1 MIN CD?
hammer of the righteous- in short....HITS 3 TARGETS, cleave hits 2 targets and requires a glyph to do 3...
Divine strength- not a prot talent but a huge advantage on the war and maybe a reason why pally tanks can do 1k more dps then a war. The ability gives you 15% more str. I think this talent should be moved down the tree more so you can only get if your deep in Ret
Other then that. I'm not going to point out all the obvious other advantages that you already know. Like conq.,bubbles, etc
I will say this however. Prot Warriors are great for shutting down a casting target.And they can almost never be kited. They are also great for moments when it gets a little too frantic. But pallys can do the same things just not as powerful and with lower CD's.
To you people reading. I raid mostly on my war regardless. Just want to point out the not so obvious facts about pally tanks. I just feel dirty playing a pally, like I'm a cheating war with hacks...
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
There have been a flurry of blue posts responding to QQs similar to the OP's lately, and just like westrock said, the devs have not seen a sudden shift to using paladin tanks in progression guilds. Sure, non-progression oriented guilds may have switching to a paladin MT (I sure as heck know, my old guild didn't) but the data on the "good" guilds shows that warriors are still the main tanks.
And because I know somebody will ask:
Warrior tanks can tank every boss in the game, and more often than not get the world first and server first kills on those bosses. More raids use warrior tanks than any other. Most cutting-edge guilds use warrior tanks. We can't detect a higher "failure rate" on warrior tanks, and frankly I'm not even sure what that means given that most everyone here agrees there are far more experienced warrior tanks than other tanks out there. Some of you are arguing "when we switch to the undergeared paladin, we do better," yet very few groups are actually switching. The best we're stuck with is some kind of fuzzy "it's harder on the healers," which is pretty hard to quantify, especially since the healers aren't running out of mana healing anyone.
This is why the developers keep going back to what we are seeing happening in the game, which is warriors tanking stuff.
Yes, if we see paladins or druids (or warriors or DKs for that matter) repeating what happened on Sarth or Vezax, then we will do something while Icecrown is still relevant.
When is the appropriate time to buff or nerf is something that is always going to be subjective. Buffing someone when we aren't convinced they need it (assuming it affects relative power compared to another class) is as dangerous as not buffing someone when they do need it.
I feel like the heart of the matter here is your definition of "easier."
Does easier mean he wipes less than you? If so, this is a big problem. I don't think it's happening though.
Does easier mean you don't need the same amount of gear? This is a slightly smaller problem, though I'll point out again that the server firsts are typically done with very little new gear, which reinforces that skill and coordination can outweigh big gear disparities.
Does easier mean you have to work a little harder at playing your class?
Does easier mean the healers have to work harder?
Does easier mean your group can have a little more slop in its execution?
If you agree with any of these issues other than the first one though, I have to ask why it's such a big deal. That falls more into quality of life issues. What I keep reading in this forum (though remarkably not so much on other WoW-dedicated forums) is that warriors and DKs have a higher failure rate on "bosses that matter" to the extent that they are being replaced by paladins and perhaps druids. We don't have a lot of evidence either of those things are happening though, which is why I have spent so much effort trying to understand where some of you are coming from.
The OP has been rebutted. For great justice.
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
I only have a paladin so chances are, I'll probably be biased - and add to that the fact that I don't have a warrior myself - I do raid with one regularly, but that's about the only source of my warrior "knowledge".
When comparing tanks, I think that comparing them in a raid environnement is probably the best way to go. That's where we can easily spot the differences.
Blizzard buff system is in a nutshell based on redundancy. You have multiple class who can cover the same type of buffs.
3% reduced dmg taken from BoS: Covered by Disco Priests - up time should be close to 100%.
Devotion Aura: In a 25 men raid, chances are you'll have at least one pally, so if you want to have a Devo Aura just ask them. Slightly lower chance in 10 men.
6% additional healing from Imp Devotion Aura: Covered by Resto Druid with their Tree of Life Aura.
Additional Armor from Devotion Aura: Only from Prot Palies as far as I know - I don't think Ret or Holy dip this far into prot even for Divine Sacrifice/Guardian. In a 10 men raid you have a 1/4 chance of getting a Paly as your other tank, 25men: 1/2 chance (considering 3 spots available)
14% Stam multiplier vs 6% for warrior: This is how Blizzard chooses to balance out the perks of both classes. Palies have librams and warriors have a ranged weapon slot. An easier way, but more boring, to balance is: Nerf Palies stam multiplier to 6% but give them stats on libram or buff Warrior up to 14% Stam multiplier but remove stats from their ranged weapon.
From where I stand, Holy Shield and Shield Block(Warrior) are very similar skill. In a long enough fight, I think the dmg absorbed by each skill should even out.
Argent Defender: Basic Last Stand on 2min CD. Brings out defensive CD spells to 2, on par with warrior.
Avenger's Shield: This was implemented in BC, when palies had 0 ranged pulling tools. The fact that it hits 3 targets is a boost in thrash tanking, but is irrelevant for boss fights.
Divine Strenght is in fact a Prot Talent - looks like it does about the same thing as Armoured to the Teeth as far as threat generation is concerned? Maybe buff AttT by making it give Strenght instead of AP?
At the end of the day, in most progressing content, there will always be at least 2 tanks. If one of them happens to be a paladin (not that rare seeing as we are so called FotM), you'll actually benefit from his Imp'd Aura, Bubble+Divine Sac combo, Divine Protection. Having a Prot Paly is a good thing as long as you can look past the difference between classes and look into tanking as a team thing, as much as healing is.
The only real difference I have noticed between the paladin tanks and warrior tank in my raid is that paladins have a much easier time with snap, single target aggro. That is made even easier by popping Wings which is a on-demand threat increase that I think Warriors are lacking.
A suggestion would be to give warriors a buff on their Enrage (make it a deep Prot talent maybe?) à la paly wings: Increases Rage generation for X seconds at the cost of Y Health. While the warrior is enraged, threat generated is increased by 50/75%. 3-5Mins CD.
The best we're stuck with is some kind of fuzzy "it's harder on the healers,"
Yep, between a pally and a warrior with similarly stat'ed gear there is very little difference. Well except now the Pallies have that built in Soulstone/Guardian Angel which I have seen a couple times.
True, the fact that the paladin's "Last Stand" is automated is a little cheap. It's not game breaking though. The fact remains that paladins haven't suddenly become the only choice in tanks; warriors are still what progression oriented guilds are using.
"Dey tuk our jobs!"
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