"Welfare Epics"

Post by 24122

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Post by Scammich

Haven't read all of the posts, but here is my 2 copper (or gold, since it's pretty easy to get that now).

This is from the perspective of a raiding feral druid in BT moving to SWP. There is nothing wrong with "welfare epics". Why people get mad over it is amusing to me. If your getting honor gear, you put in time for it, if you're getting arena gear, you put in time for it and in some cases skill. If you are getting raiding gear, you put in time for it.

PVP gear is not the optimal gear for raiding and PVE gear is not the optimal gear for PVP. You get the gear you choose to get, for what you choose to do in WoW. Most importantly, since it is easier to attain epic gear now, doesn't that just make epic the new rare? Everyone can get it, so the playing field has been evened out. But those who are skilled are still going to get better gear. Is someone in full S2 gear going to beat someone in full S4 gear? Hell no. Is someone in S2 gear going to be as effective in T6 content as someone in T6? No.

People need to get over themselves. And, you can get welfare epics by doing raids just as easily. I don't know how many lower geared people have come to BT or Hyjal and get gear because the core raiders don't need that crap anymore. It is just a game, those more dedicated to it will still be better geared and see more of it than those just doing BG's endlessly to get epics.

Those that whine about welfare epics are stuck raiding T4 content and ^&*!ed because the majority of the player base can get that level of gear. Quit sucking. If you were any good, you'd be in a guild that was raiding higher level content. You're no better than someone else just because you keep failing in Kara and can't get full purps.

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Post by Thrahxis

I But as far as I'm concerned we "work" for our epics

This comment is just plain ignorant. Frankly, you don't "work" for anything when you raid unless you're in a pug group or going through a raid that has never been done before. Raids are scripted encounters, in other words the enemies follow patterns and once you know the fight (which can be easily accomplished by asking people who have done it or reading one of the dozens of websites) it's a cakewalk unless you have idiots or people who haven't done the raid before in the group or if you're trying to pug something like TK on.

Doing PVP even in a battleground involves going against thinking (well usually thinking, on occasion you do get people on your team that aren't much brighter than a bot) opponents who don't always follow the same patterns.

Making a general statement like pve people "work" for what they get is like saying you "worked" to create art by using crayons to fill in pictures in a coloring book.

You're fighting a pre-programmed bot.... once you know the system it's easy. And before anyone says "Try raiding before you talk about the subject" I have in fact been through all the end game content and I will admit getting down the pattern of how a fight should go is kind of difficult at first but once you have the hang of it it raid bosses are a joke.

PvP people get things for just showing up. Win or loose you get your points and badges, it's naturally better to win but still everything and everyone is rewarded. Attendance epics, or if you will welfare epics.

Raiding is similar to pvp in this regard. If you do nothing in a battleground your team is likely to lose, this means you'll get very little honor and only a single mark per battle. Grinding in this fashion will take a VERY long time for you to get anything. Whereas with raids you can jump into pugs or have your experienced guild mates carry your weight. I've seen new 70s essentially being "geared up" in this fashion.... i.e. they're getting "attendance epics" since they're crappy quest greens and blues certainly aren't making or breaking the encounters in the raids. Obviously this doesn't necessarily work too well when trying to do something like Hyjal or BT, but I've seen it done by end game geared groups. If you know the raid well enough and 24 people are in end game gear with one in crap gear, even if the crap gear guy does nothing he's still going to get gear.

Also everyone in a raid is rewarded even if they don't win rolls for gear. They get badges and especially now with the new badge gear you can essentially get T5 equivalent gear that way. For that matter I've 4 manned some heroics before with guildmates to help gear up new guild members. You could simply follow a group of 4 well geared people in heroics and get badges, subsequently getting a form of "welfare epics" from badges.

No one system is better than the other. It's a matter of opinion and what you decide is more fun. Don't try and say one is "better" or "worse" than the other because they're not. Just have fun doing what you like and don't take an elitist attitude about how you're better than someone else.

Post by Philmckraken

I think there are too many elitists who use terms like "welfare epics" to deride anyone who does not have the time (in large chunks) to devote to raiding.

THIS IS A MMORPG, MORE PAIN MORE GAIN.

Thats the whole damn point. ppl who really sit 6 hours a day in wow should have much better gear than a little AV lurker.
The welfare epics is among the worst &*!@ ever happend to wow.

"No pain, no gain?" I thought we were playing for fun.

Post by SeaOfHoles

I suggest we call epics from 25 man raiding "utterly boring repeat and repeat and repeat grind" epics.

Seriously, at least back in EQ, LDON Hard missions were way more entertaining, and took more skill than any VT raid I ever went on.

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Post by amiko

i myself hate ppl that raid with pvp gear+pvp specc, you want to pvp, go pvp, don't go pve as pvp.

i normaly don't bother to say something to them if they can do any dps, like staying up with the group, but, when some pvp geared person is last on the damage meters, something is wrong.

At speciman: no1 is actualy going to farm all the 4 bg's for 350 honor.

av=15minutes(on my battlegroup) with 400honor if we lose, 500-600honor if we win.

so im sure your whole maths is messed up now, aint it >.>?

pvp=pvp
pve=pve

trying to change it will mess it up.

Post by Twisteh

Yes you can get your gear my just attending, but the sheer amount of honor/marks needed to complete your set is staggering. Assuming you don't bot, it could take months to get.

Pvp(GLADIATOR) has no place in PVE, but some vindicator/guardian pieces have no better upgrades until very late in raiding because of itemization.

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Post by Meldiren

Maybe it is just me but I'm getting really peeved with the term "Welfare Epics". Yeah i know they are fairly easy to come by but for some of us (me included) who dont have a chance/time to raid this is the best we are going to get.

Not that this has persoanlly happened to me but being told your opinion doesnt matter or you cant do this or that because u have "welfare epics" is really unfair. I have seen it happen to others.

I dont know maybe I'm just having a /cry but is there anyone else who thinks/feels the same way?

When they do that crap, just smile, then out perform them in teh BG's. Or in a duel. :)

Killing NPC's is easy. Killing a PVP rogue that gets the jump on you, that takes skill.

Post by Meldiren

Honor kills do not require skill, they do show however that you at least showed up, tried to fight, and so hopefully learn something. I don't see many afk close enough to fights to get a lot of honor kills out of it. So to me it does count for something at some point . As for arena, win/ loss record means something after you have some arena gear or at least the better honor bought pvp gear, until then you will likely loose no matter how skilled you are due to the big stam/ resil differences. Gear is not what makes a player skilled, but skilled players ( pvp and pve) will end up having the best gear availible.. That being said, how about the rep blue pvp gear be called welfare gear and the rest who cares. Pre TBC Purple vs post TBC greens/ blues ? The best dungeon sets are worn by the most progressed pve players and the best arena by the highest rating pvp players. So what is the point ?

Well, there is an incentive to get more honor kills...you aquire more honor more quickly.

In a typical AV run, I usually amass between 25 (on a really bad night) to a personal high of 79 in just one outing. Usually it is somewhere between those. What holds me back the most is getting better geared, because at lvl 70, most of the horde on our server are geared to the teeth. I need better gear, better gems, more Agil, more stam, more attack power.

Post by MrFredII

Welfare epics refers to the level of effort required to get the gear - not the player

Clear? - maybe not this is an emotion charged issue. I'll say it again. When I discuss welfare epics I am not insulting anyones playing skills, I am speaking solely about a method of acquiring gear.

To all of you that claim that one can get PVE gear by just going along I wonder if you have ever been in a serious raid. On my old server I went to Kara 12 times, I got 1 piece of gear. This was right after BC arrived everyone needed gear, I lost (quite fairly) all the other rolls. Then as others gear improved dramatically compared to mine I found it harder and harder to stay in the raids because others had better DPS. While badge gear has mitigated this to some degree, if all you get is the badges and you don't roll well on the gear you will still lose ground against your peers. Between the two servers that I play on, I've downed curator 15 times, neither character has the gloves. Whether its badges or drops you have to KILL the boss to get the gear. Showing up is not enough. While the gear progression has made this easier for the T4 level its still dicey for a lot of us for T5 (did I mention that S2 <== >T5?)

As for the comment that all raiders have to do is read the strats and follow the script - I laughed so hard I damn near cried. Were it possible I'd love to see you take 24 other folks who've NEVER set foot in a raid and tackle SSC. Man I'd pay for a video of that. Those comments completely ignore the difficulty of getting 25 people to execute those strats you dismiss well enough to win. I'd even use badges to buy your whole outfit badge gear (it wouldn't matter a whit). I am not dissing your PvP skills, but if you've never tried to lead a 25 man group in a "scripted fight" you have no idea what you are talking about. The skill sets for raiding and small group PvP (IE: not AV) are almost completely different. IMO it is not possible to compare them.

What grates on PVE focused players is that like it or not, all you need to do to get the S2 set is stay in the battleground - you need not win just stay active enough (or tucked away enough) to avoid the debuf and eventually you'll get to PICK the gear you want and there are a lot of people who will do exactly that. Sure if you win it takes less time - but winning is not required, showing up is enough.

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Post by faia

i personally don't like the welfare epics because, they're just too easy to get, it used to be harder, when you had to get ranked up it was a much better system

......rly.....you liked it better you needed to hardcore pvp every week? or if you did go on vacation for 1-2 week you down on bottom again? no thx.....

but agree, its very easy but!....if you want better, you need to go arena, and then i can't agree with you tis not that easy;) but it takes time

"Welfare Epics"

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