Why is BM Better?

Post by Pharoanx

Post by seasaint7

This is something I can really relate to. While we were playing Cata I swore up and down that my bm spec w/corehound (ancient hysteria/bloodlust) improved the entire raid party's performance at the expense of my dps loss by switching out of sv. People ridiculed and criticized that idea, but it's proven true on more than one occasion.

I definitely recommend getting a recount add-on, visit a target somewhere, turn on your stopwatch, and do your best dps with both specs. Use the stopwatch to get your damage for 1 minute per spec. Write down the total damage for each minute with both specs and get an honest, real back-up for your preferences.

Your playstyle is just as important, though. You say your more comfortable playing sv so when you're soloing, play sv to your heart's content. But in a raid group you have a bunch of people depending on your abilities and dps so you have to be flexible. Your group may be missing a buff that one of your exotic bm pets can provide. I have found wolves with their furious howl/crit buff to be perfect to bring a very important buff to parties while playing in sv spec. I always carry one in my pocket :P

Happy hunting!

Post by Pharoanx

Post by Zakkhar

I'm leveling from 85 to 90 and all I've seen is that BM is LITERALLY the best specc for raids and single-target dps, but I don't like it. How am I supposed to overcome the mental wall I have? I much prefer Survival, but apparently it's not "the best", but that's the specc that I excel in at the moment.

There difference between SV and BM isnt as big as between those and current MM, so play whatever you want. You clearly wont be able to perform top notch BM if you dont like it and only than it will be doing better dps than your top notch SV.

I just don't understand why it's so good; spam Arcane Shot and Kill Command, and that's better than ExPS, and Black Arrow?
You clearly dont understand how these spec work.
SV has a main shot on short cd (6s), Bm has the same in form of Kill command. Its hardly spammable. Actually SV spams more ES than BM would ever spam KC.
SV has a resource regen tied into Serpent sting on target, rng and cobra shot, BM resource regen is based on pet doing damage rng, certain cooldowns.and cobra shot.
Black arrow doesnt do a lot of damage itself, its main use is proccing LnL for more ES.

Both specs dump focus with same shots (arcane/multi).
Only thing SV has to do is manage Sting and BA, while BM has some shorter and longer cds (Bestial wrath, focus fire) and other cds depending on talents. Which need to be micromanaged.
Basically SV is like fire mage - you do costistent damage all the time, with occasional proc burst.
BM is more like arcane mage - you have phases of focus regen and focus dump, depending on the avaiability of cooldowns (focus regen phase utilises haste cds - rapid fire, focus fire; focus dump phase utilises bestial wrath). Its important to be at certain stages of focus before activating those cooldowns (starting the phases). Its very complex, but at the dps meter it looks like KC and Arcane spam, the same way arcane mages damage looked like on meters in cata.
DPs meters dont play the class.

I definitely recommend getting a recount add-on, visit a target somewhere, turn on your stopwatch, and do your best dps with both specs. Use the stopwatch to get your damage for 1 minute per spec. Write down the total damage for each minute with both specs and get an honest, real back-up for your preferences.
1 min will do more harm than actual gain. Most boss fights are 8-10 minutes long. BM has a lot of cds it pops on start which makes it peak a lot more than other classes/specs. There is no chance it will drop enough within 1 minute.

Post by TheRazorsEdge

I have a cat w/ Mastery, a Wolf w/ Crit, and a Wind Serpent with the 5% added Magic Damage. But yeah, I guess I'm gonna have to once I hit 90. I just don't understand why it's so good; spam Arcane Shot and Kill Command, and that's better than ExPS, and Black Arrow? There just seems like I'm doing something wrong or I don't like it. I should probably give it another shot.

Kill Command replaces Explosive Shot as your primary nuke, but you still have to use Focus Fire intelligently. SV is easier, with BA/LnL being obvious use-on-CD abilities.

You also have slightly different cooldowns (i.e., Bestial Wrath and Lynx Rush) that either require no focus or save your focus---vs SV using Murder of Crows with a significant focus cost, which needs to fit in without delaying Explosive Shot.

There is one major similarity---if your big nuke is off CD longer than a fraction of a second, you're doing it wrong. Other than that, they play quite differently.

Post by Pharoanx

I forgot about Focus Fire. So now comes the question of talents and rotation. I understand when to dump Focus and when to gain it, but is Lynx Rush better than Blink Strike, and is there any particular pet I need to maximize my Dps? Murder of Crows is hard to work in, I enjoy Blink Strike much more than MoC. It's just that it seems I do more damage with SV, but maybe I am playing favorites and giving BM some pre-judgement.

Post by Pharoanx

Basically SV is like fire mage - you do costistent damage all the time, with occasional proc burst.
BM is more like arcane mage - you have phases of focus regen and focus dump

Thank you for that reference. That helps a lot in understanding the differences between the two speccs.

Post by Zakkhar

I forgot about Focus Fire. So now comes the question of talents and rotation. I understand when to dump Focus and when to gain it, but is Lynx Rush better than Blink Strike
Blink strike is ok talent to level with as it gives you another (focus free) instant to kill stuff and to teleport your pet from one target to another. In raiding, that advantage becomes disadvantage. You dont need to teleport your pet because there usually is only one target present. Fights take way too long and burning a gcd overy 20 seconds to do mediocre damage isnt great.

Lynx rush has no focus cost, relatively short cooldown (but long enough you dont have to waste gcds on it) and short aplying time (4 seconds before 5.1 hits) which allows you to do lynx rush, readiness, something, something, lynx rush. For good burst. Blink strike wont provide such burst, and will burn way more gcds to provide its damage.
Murder of crows costs lots of focus, has long cd and long applying time (30s), which means you cant really go murder of crows, readiness, murder of crows, because they dont stack.

and is there any particular pet I need to maximize my Dps?
All ferocity pets do same damage. Your best choice pet is the one that provides you a best buff your raid/group/you lack. In solo play thats 5% crit buff provided by wolves.

Murder of Crows is hard to work in, I enjoy Blink Strike much more than MoC.
I enjoy lynx rush way more for the reason i stated above. Yes i raided a bit with blink strike, and leveled with it.

It's just that it seems I do more damage with SV, but maybe I am playing favorites and giving BM some pre-judgement.
In leveling it does, due to the short cd/proc related burst, superior aoe and the fact nothing lives long enough for BM pet to even get close to 5 Frenzy stacks.

Post by Nooska

Just to sum up and echo what the others have said;

If you dislike BM you will perform better with SV which you like and know (assumption there, but I'll go with it).

Anecdotally, I used to beat 90% of MM hunters I came up against last expansion as BM - because I like and know BM, and most hunters went MM because thats what the internet told them to.

Post by Pharoanx

Lynx Rush does seem much better than Blink in raids. I guess it all depends. If I can ultimately do more Dps in SV than BM, does that mean I'm doing something wrong? Or is that my style of play?

Post by Saerath

It kind of sounds like you're in the same boat I am in. I was Survival throughout Wrath & Cata. I switched to BM to level, and because it was "the raid spec." I'm 90, and I still have trouble with BM because I was so used to playing as Survival. I'm slowly getting better as I run more heroics, and raids with BM, but the transition is taking much longer than I expected it to.

Post by Nooska

There are 2 possibilities.
1) You need to learn BM and get used to it, and then you will do more damage in BM than you would in SV.
2) You are significatnly better at SV than BM (I could also say it the other way round, you are significantly worse at BM than SV, take your pick), and will do better damage as SV than as BM.

BM and SV are realtively similar in execution, as long as you learn what to watch for
- in SV its LnL and making sure you can BA and ExS
- in BM its FF and BW and making sure you can KC
(Roughly said)

Edit: So if you can do better dps in SV, you may be doing something wrong, or you may just have a style of play (and muscle memory as well as acclimation) that suits SV better for you.
And that is the key point - play as whatever you perform better with on a given encounter, not what some dudes and dudettes on the internet say performs best - given equal skill and perfect condition - we can tell you the theory, you can tell us which performs better for you.

Post by Pharoanx

I'm glad that everyone is advocating preference. I will definitely try to learn BM.

Post by drbosnovich

I say just do what you enjoy. In every expansion there are some specs that out DPS others, but the difference is almost never as game changing as people make out (excepting MM at the moment, which is just flat out broken). Unless you really care about min/maxing or are raiding at a very high level, the difference between SV and BM is not going to make the difference between a successful and non-successful encounter.

Personally I find BM very dull in between FF and BW cooldowns; in fact it's always felt like it's an ability short of keeping you awake, but that's just me. No one's going to care about the ~1kdps drop I might have using SV over BM.

Post by Nooska

@drbosnovich
"Personally I find BM very dull in between FF and BW cooldowns; in fact it's always felt like it's an ability short of keeping you awake"

Have you tried BM in MoP? if you think there is an ability too few to "keep you awake" I think you've missed some on your bar. BM has a few too many buttons to push for most people. I've been BM for quite a few years, and am glad I invested in a mouse with more buttons or I would have had a hard time fitting everything I need where I need it. The "too many buttons" has even been agreed on by GC over twitter a few months back.

Post by drbosnovich

Yes, but that's an affliction to all specs at the moment, not just BM, and I totally agree with you on that. I really don't like the way that hunters as a whole have evolved since LK, constantly adding more dull, lazily conceived, 'long CD summon animal to do damage' abilities. And the fact that so much of our DPS output is tied to these abilities.

So yes, I have played BM in MoP, very badly and inefficiently no doubt, just as a personal opinion from someone who has always loved SV and MM, I find the increasingly small 'times between big CD abilities', the KC/AS/CoS rotation makes me yearn for another shot to weave in. In fact I spec blink strike and use it on the same key as ES/Chimera just so I don't get homesick, but of course it means the damn boss I'm soloing is always jumping around....

Actually, as a general point, does anyone else thing the boundaries between the specs is less than it used to be in terms of playstyle? I dunno if it's the simpliciation of the specs or the fact that we spend so much time watching our big talent ablilites cool down now, but I just don't think the specs feel quite as different or distinct as they used to...

Post by Twizelbang

I'm leveling from 85 to 90 and all I've seen is that BM is LITERALLY the best specc for raids and single-target dps, but I don't like it. How am I supposed to overcome the mental wall I have? I much prefer Survival, but apparently it's not "the best", but that's the specc that I excel in at the moment.

Just play the spec you prefer, forget about what others say. In most cases you will do better with a spec you prefer to play anyways. Every spec & class in this game is meant to be playable. Perhaps some spec's / classes can & will perform better. The margins between them isn't to drastic.

I wouldn't rule out Beast Master till you actually play the class at max level. You might even change your mind. But don't force yourself to keep playing a spec you truly hate. Since you will truly lose all passion to play the class. I burnt myself out doing that on my Paladin, i spent from Vanilla, TBC.. playing a spec i truly didn't wanna play anymore.

Doing something for others is all well & good, but sometimes you have to think whats best for you.
In my case we lacked healers... so i kept healing. I spent Vanilla & all of TBC doing something i didn't want to do... Then i hated raiding, because of it. Today i refuse, blank to do anything i don't want to do.. perhaps harsh, but then sometimes.. raid groups can & will take the piss. Same for any group you happen to be in.

If people don't like the spec you play, then you have many options.. don't let them choose for you. Decide whats more important, being happy & enjoying what you're doing, or being unhappy & still trying to enjoy yourself... the latter doesn't work out in the long run. Short term basis it might be ok. The other option is find a better group to be with, that can cater for your playstyle.

Post by felhunter

since the release of MoP i have been raiding as SV, even though BM outshined it quite a lot at the start.
but i simply cant stand BM, so i sticked too SV. i also like MM, but sadly that spec was and is quite far behind so i went for the better preforming of the 2 specs i love being an hunter.

and i encourage every hunter (or other class out there) to do the same. play what you enjoy even if its slightly subpar. it wont matter anyway unless your going for world firsts.

Post by Zakkhar

And to elaborate on that question, here is how all classes/specs stack up against each other:
Noxxic DPS Rankings
Now keep in mind those are realistic, not maximum. Also surv is slightly ahead.
Those are outdated and not relevant (the sim overvaluing haste). Please refrain from spamming those in every thread. No i dont mean you i mean general public of sheep.

The point of this is, if you truly cared about being "the best", you would be a FOTM roller, which right now would mean you are an arcane mage.
Nothing fotm in maximising your personal dps in order to maximise raid dps. If you can level another proffesion to min max do it, if you can change spec/talents - do it.

Since you are not an arcane mage, I have to assume you play what you enjoy, which is hunter. Why can you not play even more of what you love, and be a surv hunter, even when people wish you were a BM hunter?
The actual question is 3 month old and was repeatedly answered already.

Post by 1099070

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Why is BM Better?

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